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Busybodies vs. Fun

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by collegestudent22 on Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:43 pm

Jamie Bond wrote:overall economic efficiency is important, but it is not the only attribute to look at.

Of course not. But the Canadian system, and its similar systems in the UK and Europe, also have much longer average wait times, lower quality of care, shortages of doctors, etc. The problems seen with the US system (namely "it costs a lot") are almost entirely due to government interference in the system reducing competition between insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, medical equipment companies, etc. through expensive-to-comply-with regulations, and even worse, direct market control (like limiting insurance markets to in-state companies that only provide a limited choice of coverage levels).

On the other hand, the private sector, through Wal-mart and its competitors, has brought Americans the wonders of $4 prescription drugs. Not to mention the modern medicinal industry in its entirety. (But, hey, at least a socialized medical care system 100 years ago would have paid for lots of brandy.)

Jamie Bond wrote:I will take a system with its flaws to ensure this.

I don't think you quite understand the magnitude of the flaws with the socialist system - and have overestimated the flaws of the private one. Sure, it's great to say "look, everyone is covered", but the reality is not so simple. Doctor's shortages, dangerously long wait times, and ever-increasing costs to the point of government bankruptcy (or currency worthlessness) are much greater dangers, especially in the long run. Because the truth of the matter is that, while it may have worked for you and your family, it certainly doesn't work for everyone:

But, hey, at least he's insured. I'm sure that will help him get his care... eventually. Someday, John Goodman will be able to get a cholesterol test done in Canada. Someday.

Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.

Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by BtEO on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:23 pm

Deacon wrote:Whoa holy shit is this for real? How in the world can they possibly think its ok to force every woman to take and use birth control??

I was under the impression that it was merely that insurance had to cover birth control if the woman wants it. If they were forcing all women to take contraception all the time I'd imagine the outrage would be far greater from all sides.

See unlike a with a condom, where you only need to buy/use them when they're needed, if a woman wants the option of having sex without getting pregnant (a rather notable health issue) she needs to already be taking it regularly — the other options are convincing all dudes to use condoms (and since they're not the ones getting pregnant this has historically proven difficult, plus they can have an effect on pleasure which if you're having sex for recreation can be rather important), or emergency contraception/abortion — both of which tend to be opposed by the same groups most vocally opposing this measure.

collegestudent22 wrote:and the result is either massive shortages of doctors and medical supplies or a lack of quality. The latter has been going on in the UK for decades.

Except that patient satisfaction is at in all time high and falling productivity in the NHS is a myth. Not to mention that the average person spends less on healthcare via their tax contributions here than the average spent via insurance in the US, and yet the quality of care is rated much higher according to the WHO. (Healthcare in the UK vs. Healthcare in the US — the info is in all in the summaries, and yes, there are citations.)

Maybe you can lower costs and improve patient care by reducing government interference. Maybe there are some ways in which the US system is better (if you have insurance). I'd take the flaws of socialised healthcare over the flaws of an insurance-based system anytime.

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by collegestudent22 on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:50 pm

BtEO wrote:
collegestudent22 wrote:and the result is either massive shortages of doctors and medical supplies or a lack of quality. The latter has been going on in the UK for decades.
Except that patient satisfaction is at in all time high

(Minor correction - that "latter" I was referring to was the latter option of 'do nothing', not the result of a lack of quality. The doctor shortages was the result of it. Sorry - that was bad phrasing on my part.)

Patient satisfaction is, on a national level, not a very useful metric. Especially when talking about the UK, where the only semi-affordable alternative is the also-socialized medical care on the Continent.

and falling productivity in the NHS is a myth.

I wasn't aware the Daily Mail was making it all up. Or the BBC. Good thing the Telegraph is covering the myth of falling productivity. Except, they also are reporting the massive doctor shortage crisis. And I ask, how can productivity not suffer in a system where there aren't enough doctors to go around?

the quality of care is rated much higher according to the WHO.

And the anti-American, pro-socialism UN (its charter of "rights" is nearly as bad as the EU's) has NEVER fudged the data or analysis to make socialism look better. Ever.

Maybe you can lower costs and improve patient care by reducing government interference. Maybe there are some ways in which the US system is better (if you have insurance). I'd take the flaws of socialised healthcare over the flaws of an insurance-based system anytime.

The problem is, the US "insurance-based" system only has most of those flaws because it is already quasi-socialist. The flaws haven't been fixed in your system - the costs have just been shifted to the middle class and "the rich", in an unsustainable use of force that is slowly coming apart at the seams (currently mostly behind the scenes). The solution to the problem is not, and never will be, creating a legion of jack-booted thugs to force it to work.

Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.

Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by BtEO on Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:42 am

collegestudent22 wrote:
BtEO wrote:and falling productivity in the NHS is a myth.

I wasn't aware the Daily Mail was making it all up. Or the BBC. Good thing the Telegraph is covering the myth of falling productivity. Except, they also are reporting the massive doctor shortage crisis. And I ask, how can productivity not suffer in a system where there aren't enough doctors to go around?

Maybe this new study has flaws, or maybe there are more factors at play in the quality of healthcare than simply the number of doctors. I have no idea what may or may not be true in our case, but in answer to your question I can quite easily see how improvements in the care provided by nurses, paramedics, etc… might well offset a shortage of doctors and deliver overall improvements to productivity by having fewer people needing to see a doctor as often. But like I say I'm firmly in the realm of speculation as to exactly how these apparently conflicting reports can co-exist. I did pick the Telegraph's reporting of this new study just for you though.

It also wouldn't be totally out of character for any of those three organisations to have made up virtually the entire story. Here's a fine example of this from the Daily Mail.

Curiously those three articles lay the blame either at the EU working time directive (limiting the hours per-week doctors are allowed to work) or a block on employing non-EU doctors without first attempting to source replacements from within the EU. (It's harder to disagree with the pay freezes/pension changes also cited in the current financial climate, even if it seems the banking institutions largely responsible (responsible alongside government interference/deregulation of the banking sector) for this have escaped without punishment)

So I guess I kinda agree with you on government interference exacerbating such problems.

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by collegestudent22 on Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:26 am

BtEO wrote:It also wouldn't be totally out of character for any of those three organisations to have made up virtually the entire story. Here's a fine example of this from the Daily Mail.

I grant that such a made up story would be plausible. That's why I pointed to all three.

Curiously those three articles lay the blame either at the EU working time directive (limiting the hours per-week doctors are allowed to work) or a block on employing non-EU doctors without first attempting to source replacements from within the EU. (It's harder to disagree with the pay freezes/pension changes also cited in the current financial climate, even if it seems the banking institutions largely responsible (responsible alongside government interference/deregulation of the banking sector) for this have escaped without punishment)

Now THAT is baloney. Or more accurately, that might have made it worse, but it certainly isn't the main cause of the problem. Otherwise, I couldn't find similar articles from 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, etc., 1998 (pdf scan of journal page) - back to at least 1995. It's a systemic problem with the NHS.

On banking, the problem is not, and never will be "deregulation". For one, that didn't actually happen. More importantly, however, no amount of regulation will fix a system where the moral hazard is built in by "lenders of last resort" that can create funds out of nowhere to bail out the worst offenders. And no regulation beyond "fraud is illegal" would be necessary in a system without that - the banks with highly risky, but not illegal, business practices would end up bankrupt and scorned by consumers. (In addition, the risk would be directly reflected in interest rates, rates of return, etc. - instead of hidden through credit expansion pushed by central banks.)

Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.

Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by collegestudent22 on Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:12 am

Really wish this show was still running.

Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.

Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by collegestudent22 on Fri May 11, 2012 3:39 am

Is this for real? Banning cars? Seriously? Well.... fuck Europe, then.

Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.

Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by The Cid on Fri May 11, 2012 11:12 am

Sometimes I feel like Europe would ban people from going to the Louvre, because not everybody is as artistically talented as the masters and they might feel bad.

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by BtEO on Fri May 11, 2012 12:33 pm

Pro-tip:
Our papers are shit.

And in particular regards to the EU, if there was a statement that came from any part of it declaring that kittens were cute, the Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, or Daily Express would probably try to twist that into some kind of announcement of a puppy cull. Virtually every time you've ever read (or will read) that Europe is to ban something, or heavily regulate something, or enforce some ridiculous rule on its member states I can guarantee there is at best a tiny kernel of truth buried under metres of shit.

The EU is far from perfect, but it's nowhere near as bad as it is frequently suggested by the media to be.

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by The Cid on Fri May 11, 2012 8:39 pm

Noted, but I stand by my mildly unfair stereotype of "Eurpoe" as though that were one consistent culture, because now you know how we feel on this side of the pond sometimes. :lol:

:lol:

But really, screw those artists in the Louvre. Why can't they show my crappy, crude sketchings? It's not my fault that some people are more artistically talented than I am. It's...why, it's just not fair, dammit! Those elitist bastards that prefer talented artists to the rest of us normal people need to pay. [/The Way Everyone Who Isn't Super-Brilliant and Cool Like Me Thinks.]

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by collegestudent22 on Fri May 11, 2012 9:29 pm

BtEO wrote:Virtually every time you've ever read (or will read) that Europe is to ban something, or heavily regulate something, or enforce some ridiculous rule on its member states I can guarantee there is at best a tiny kernel of truth buried under metres of shit.

Except it always does so. Maybe not in the way it was originally floated, or reported on, but the EU does a lot of this crap. Further, that doesn't point out whether this quote is accurate:

"That means no more conventionally fuelled cars in our city centres," he said. "Action will follow, legislation, real action to change behaviour."

Because "plans" or not, that definitely sounds like a move to, or at least an idea to, ban the ICE automobile.

Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.

Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by collegestudent22 on Sat May 12, 2012 4:53 am

I'm not sure about this. Any chance we can get another study to sort this out?

Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.

Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by spikegirl7 on Sat May 12, 2012 5:23 am

The cost of the study of the study of the studies was not available from the GAO.

This is what I was curious about. And then we'll need a study to know how much the study of the study of the studies cost us. Then we'll need another study to find out how much THAT cost. Oh, and we'll need to know how much that costs us too.

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by BtEO on Sat May 12, 2012 9:53 am

collegestudent22 wrote:
"That means no more conventionally fuelled cars in our city centres," he said. "Action will follow, legislation, real action to change behaviour."

Because "plans" or not, that definitely sounds like a move to, or at least an idea to, ban the ICE automobile.

Legislation doesn't mean ban. It could mean greater and more attractive public transport options, more charging points for electric vehicles or whatever else might end up being able to power our vehicles in 40 year's time; in the shorter term it could mean things like more bike lanes, or carpool lanes to reduce reliance where possible, or continuing the work to reduce emissions in conventionally fuelled cars.

Also note the headlines were "Cars face ban from all cities …another plan forced on us by the crazy EU", "EU to ban cars from cities by 2050", and interestingly the Mail's much better, although still invoking the word ban, "EU plans to ban all petrol and diesel cars from cities to force drivers to go “green”"^[1]. The first two don't say anything to narrow it down to petrol or diesel — they do in the article, but the (front page) headline is well understood to be the most memorable part of a newspaper article even when contradicted or watered down once you get a paragraph or two in. The Express had clearly seen the statement put out in a vain attempt to stem exactly this kind of journalism because they quoted it in the final paragraph: "The Commission denied it wanted to ban cars from city centres but said “phasing out conventional combustion engines is a realistic objective”."

[1] The do however stress "Green", when the statement put out by the EU about the white paper refers to "challenges of congestion, noise pollution, traffic jams and so on." I'm sure the white paper itself probably has plenty of emphasis on non-noise pollution but it's not the only consideration.

The Cid wrote:Noted, but I stand by my mildly unfair stereotype of "Eurpoe" as though that were one consistent culture, because now you know how we feel on this side of the pond sometimes.

Touché, though not something I try to engage in personally you dumb redneck hick. :shifty:

:shifty:

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

by Deacon on Sat May 12, 2012 2:24 pm

BtEO wrote:you dumb redneck hick.

Point taken.

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