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Cooling the Climate, or at least the Carbon

Perspectives on our world and our universe, how it works, what is happening, and why it happens. Whether by a hidden hand or natural laws, we come together to hash it out, and perhaps provide a little bit of education and enlightenment for others. This is a place for civil discussion. Please keep it that way.
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So I hear a lot of complaints about the carbon dioxide content and what percentage of it is man-made or not (with the emphasis on not). I get that skepticism.

So let me turn the tables around a bit. So as of April 2010 the levels of carbon dioxide as measured by NOAA's Mauna Loa Observatory is 390 parts per million. Do we have the technology and/or the capability to lower that amount to say 337 parts per million (as it measured in January of 1980) in the same time frame it took for the levels to rise between 1980 and now?

No, I'm not saying that it's hypocritical to say that if man didn't cause the lion's share of the global warming effect (such as it is) that we don't have the capability to or not. It's far easier to add than to subtract. I feel that regardless of opinion of whether the state of the climate, we are testing the boundaries of what is considered to be the acceptable parameters for maintaining a stable atmosphere and we need to do what needs to be down to lower that carbon dioxide parts per million.
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ampersand wrote:I feel that regardless of opinion of whether the state of the climate, we are testing the boundaries of what is considered to be the acceptable parameters for maintaining a stable atmosphere and we need to do what needs to be down to lower that carbon dioxide parts per million.


I disagree. The climate is already a self-regulating system. Higher CO2 levels cause larger plant growth and denser forests, which in turn lower the CO2 level to a stable level. You ever seen those fossils of giant ferns from prehistoric, dinosaur-filled times? That is a direct result of higher CO2 levels - levels that, according to my understanding of articles I have read in the past, were mainly lowered by plant life resurging faster than animal life after the disaster that killed off the dinosaurs 65 million years ago (many conifers, for example, actually require fire for the pine cones to release their seeds). These plants have then grown smaller to adapt to lower CO2 levels over the millennia.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.


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So where are the larger leaves? This increase has occurred in the last forty years. You would have thought we would see examples of larger plant growth. Also, the climate system has nothing to do plant life. The biosphere is self-regulating, true. But the climate isn't.

You are missing my main question. My question isn't should we lower the carbon dioxide levels, but do we?
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ampersand wrote:So where are the larger leaves? This increase has occurred in the last forty years. You would have thought we would see examples of larger plant growth. Also, the climate system has nothing to do plant life. The biosphere is self-regulating, true. But the climate isn't.


Currently, the gains have been far more obvious in denser forests. (Although any observation of an actual greenhouse provides ample evidence of a relationship between CO2 levels and the ability of plants to grow.) And that has, according to this research, created larger CO2 sinks, maintaining a steady increase (and many plateaus) in CO2 ppm in the face of deforestation and exponential increases in industrial output in many large nations.

Also, the biosphere is a fundamental component of the climate at this point in time. The climate affects the biosphere, and the biosphere creates feedback to stabilize it, through the biological inputs into the water cycle and CO2 cycle, while it adapts to fit the changes if they cannot be stopped.

You are missing my main question. My question isn't should we lower the carbon dioxide levels, but do we?


Well, if we should and can, then the answer is a no-brainer. If you are asking if we can, then I would say that we cannot - although if we decrease output (which will occur as innovation results in more efficient systems and better fuel sources, and education slows population growth) and allow the biosphere to naturally reduce CO2 levels, that should occur on its own over time.

The problem, I think, is the arrogance to think we should intentionally tamper with the environment of our own planet, as if we can turn it into a giant room with air conditioning and air mixture controls, with some idea that we can create a perfect climate without understanding any of it. There is no real evidence that higher CO2 levels will result in DOOMTM, and the climate has changed, while the biosphere adapts, for millennia - there is no reason to think it cannot do so now. Really, climate change alarmists are acting like children that demand their parents buy them some gadget without understanding the reasons why they will not.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.


Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?
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It's interesting to me that carbon, of all things, is what people choose to fixate on and pretend to do things about, like some silly white guilt security blanket. There are much more immediate and real things we can actually do things about, like the wanton destruction and overfishing of the oceans.
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It is possible if only man have some sensitivity on what’s really happening on our environment. We all know that it’s a matter of cycle, give and take process. The rampant loose of our natural resources especially the plants and trees from the forest and mountains. Man, animals and others produces CO2 while in return plants make the oxygen than we needed to live. Before more oxygen was produces ‘coz the world is contained of many plants and less infrastructure but it isn’t now.
I didn’t say we blame it on modern technology; it’s the people who didn’t care and thinks only what good for themselves. A little bit of concern won’t harm since it was us who’s getting the benefits.
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It is possible if only man have some sensitivity on what’s really happening on our environment. We all know that it’s a matter of cycle, give and take process. The rampant loose of our natural resources especially the plants and trees from the forest and mountains. Man, animals and others produces CO2 while in return plants make the oxygen than we needed to live. Before more oxygen was produces ‘coz the world is contained of many plants and less infrastructure but it isn’t now.
I didn’t say we blame it on modern technology; it’s the people who didn’t care and thinks only what good for themselves. A little bit of concern won’t harm since it was us who’s getting the benefits.
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Looks like global warming fixed itself. :shifty:
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.


Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?
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I thought Deacon drunk posted there for a moment :)
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Cooling the Climate, or at least the Carbon

Postby Deacon on Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:12 pm

I'm none too happy about it myself.
Eric (the Deacon remix)

The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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I did TOO! I was so confused. I was a little concerned we were watching him post mid-stroke.
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More evidence of global warming nonsense: extreme cold in Europe. Note: my point here is not that warming is not happening (although I'm not sure it is), but to acknowledge that extreme cold snaps are far, far worse than warmer-than-ideal temperatures.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.


Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?
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So.. your point is that cold snaps are bad, but you are not using the recent cold snap disprove warming. If that's true, why bring up global warming at all in your post?
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I was referring to the hysteria of the "the world's going to end because the average global temperature has gone up 0.2 degrees Celsius" idea that warming is a huge problem to solve as opposed to something that requires, at most minor adaptation.

The first step about global warming is whether it is actually happening - as my last post indicated, there is evidence it is not. Next, whether it is human-caused or a normal climate change. And finally, when talking of policy (as this thread purports to do) whether it is even an issue. If all of those conditions have been met, THEN is the time to discuss what to do about it. The general discussion skipped from the possibility the first condition is met into the discussion, without conclusively proving the first and ignoring the rest.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.


Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?
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Yeah... but... you said yourself that the cold snap is not being used as evidence (by you) against global warming. How is it in opposition to those who say global warming is a serious issue? I don't think anyone is debating that cold snaps can be dangerous.

You could just have easily have said devastating earthquakes are "far, far worse than warmer-than-ideal temperatures". It may be true, but doesn't really prove anything if there is no link.
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