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A History of Poverty

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A History of Poverty

Postby Psudo on Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:18 am

American Colonies by Alan Taylor, p308 wrote:According to tax records, in 1771 the wealthiest tenth of Bostonians owned more than 60% of urban wealth, while the bottom three-tenths owned virtually nothing. Urban radicals denounced the development of greater extremes of wealth and poverty as linked.
When I read this, I instantly thought of the Occupy movement and their complaints about wealth disparity today. How does it compare?

I didn't find any modern data about how much of Boston's wealth rests in the hands of the top 10% of it's residents, and it don't particularly expect to. It's a very specific data point that few people have an interest in. But national figures have greater appeal and ought to be easier to come by.

This source has some data for wealth distribution for 1983-2007, saying that the top 1% owns 33-38% of the USA's wealth (net worth) and the next 20% own the next 45-51%. Neither of those are top 10% figures, but it gives a kind of ballpark. I like math, so I did some and I estimate that:
in 1983, the top 10% owned between 57.55% and 67.6% of the country's net worth.
in 1995, between 61.15% and 77%.
and in 2007, between 59.85% and 69.2%.
I'd say that matches "more than 60%" pretty closely. 240 years later, the wealth distribution of our taxpayers is pretty much the same as it was before. I think that's a pretty good indication that history is repeating itself, and we not approaching some radical new level of financial inequality. It's more likely the same ol' same old, a wealth distribution that hasn't changed much in all of American history.

Methodology notes: The bottom of that range is the sum of the top 1% figure and half of the remaining 19% figure; 1 + 9.5 = 10.5, but the wealthier half of those 19% have to have more money than the poorer half, so that math accounts for something less than the wealth of those 10.5 percentage points and presumably less than 10%. The top of that range is double the 1% figure; since the wealth of the top 1% is nearly as much as the wealth of the next 19%, double the wealth of the top 1% is probably closer to the wealth of the top 20% than of the top 10%. This doesn't account for the financial crisis that started at the end of 2008 and is still reverberating today.
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Re: A History of Poverty

Postby collegestudent22 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:57 pm

Wealth distribution is a stupid point anyway. I'd rather own 0.1% of the total wealth of America today than 60% of all of it in 1771 or whatever. Think about it. Say you were the wealthiest man in Boston in 1771. The poor guy in 2012 that has a small apartment with a computer, a flush toilet, an electric oven/stove, and a refrigerator is far wealthier than you ever were.
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Re: A History of Poverty

Postby Psudo on Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:36 am

I think wealth distribution could potentially be a problem in some society, like North Korea where the Supreme Leader owns essentially everything. I just don't buy the criticism as leveled against modern America.

collegestudent22 wrote:I'd rather own 0.1% of the total wealth of America today than 60% of all of it in 1771 or whatever. Think about it.
Either one would make you several times richer than Bill Gates. There's a galactic difference between 10% of the population owning 60% of the wealth and one guy owning it.

collegestudent22 wrote:Say you were the wealthiest man in Boston in 1771. The poor guy in 2012 that has a small apartment with a computer, a flush toilet, an electric oven/stove, and a refrigerator is far wealthier than you ever were.
Owning more than a thousand acres of real estate in downtown Boston might alter that slightly.
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Re: A History of Poverty

Postby collegestudent22 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:10 pm

Psudo wrote:
collegestudent22 wrote:Say you were the wealthiest man in Boston in 1771. The poor guy in 2012 that has a small apartment with a computer, a flush toilet, an electric oven/stove, and a refrigerator is far wealthier than you ever were.
Owning more than a thousand acres of real estate in downtown Boston might alter that slightly.


Owning a thousand acres of real estate without any modern conveniences would make you pretty poor, as a matter of fact. Especially without the advances that have increased the value of land.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.


Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?
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A History of Poverty

Postby Deacon on Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:00 pm

Blah blah blah. That's a pretty dumb argument both ways and isn't at all relevant to any of it.
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Re: A History of Poverty

Postby collegestudent22 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:49 pm

Deacon wrote:Blah blah blah. That's a pretty dumb argument both ways and isn't at all relevant to any of it.


The fact that the poor nowadays are wealthier than even kings and nobles in the past isn't relevant to a discussion about poverty? How so?

The question is between equality in poverty, and inequality in ever-increasing wealth for everyone. I'd definitely choose the latter.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.


Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?
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Re: A History of Poverty

Postby The Cid on Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:19 pm

collegestudent22 wrote:Say you were the wealthiest man in Boston in 1771. The poor guy in 2012 that has a small apartment with a computer, a flush toilet, an electric oven/stove, and a refrigerator is far wealthier than you ever were.

IN YOUAH FACE, JOHN HANCOCK!
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A History of Poverty

Postby Deacon on Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:38 am

collegestudent22 wrote:The fact that the poor nowadays are wealthier than even kings and nobles in the past isn't relevant to a discussion about poverty? How so?

It's not only irrelevant but inaccurate. Don't confuse access to inexpensive modern conveniences for wealth.
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Re: A History of Poverty

Postby collegestudent22 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:18 am

Deacon wrote:Don't confuse access to inexpensive modern conveniences for wealth.


That's precisely what wealth means. Wealth is the abundance of valuable resources or material possessions - not some sum in a bank account. The increase in wealth is the same as the increase in available material possessions. If I can buy more stuff with the same amount of money - i.e. my purchasing power increased - I have become wealthier.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.


Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?
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Re: A History of Poverty

Postby Psudo on Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:21 am

collegestudent22 wrote:Owning a thousand acres of real estate without any modern conveniences would make you pretty poor, as a matter of fact. Especially without the advances that have increased the value of land.
Location location location. Sell 500 acres in Manhattan (21,000 acres, valued at $800 billion; that's $38 million an acre, or $19 billion for 500 acres) and you can buy all the improvements you'll ever need. Boston would be similar. How much would the value of that land drop because it was unimproved? Two thirds? Nine tenths? Our man is still a billionaire.

Not all commodities depreciate in the comparison between 1771 and today. The free market ensures that wealth in any area translates into wealth in general. Rich is rich.
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Re: A History of Poverty

Postby collegestudent22 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:46 am

Psudo wrote:Our man is still a billionaire.


You misunderstand my point. He has a billion dollars, yes. And he still needs to buy ice or salt to cool his food so it doesn't spoil. He has no idea of what a computer is. He needs to go to the theatre to here music or get entertainment. He has to use candles to have enough light to do any business after the sun descends. His fastest way of travel is by horse-drawn carriage - it takes days, if not weeks, to get from one major city to another (in the relatively cramped East Coast, no less). He has an outhouse stinking up his backyard. And he will probably die around the age of 60 (or earlier) from some disease "treated" by leeching or bleeding.

Rich is rich.


Not really. The very basic standard of living of the poorest Americans today is far beyond that available to even the richest individuals in the past.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.


Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?
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Re: A History of Poverty

Postby Arres on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:49 am

The problem CS22 is you took a thread about wealth distribution, and turned it into an argument over whether a broke ass schmo today is somehow "wealthier" than a rich land owner of yesteryear because he has access to running water. Stop it. It's irrelevant to the discussion and assinine.
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Re: A History of Poverty

Postby collegestudent22 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:03 am

Arres wrote:Stop it. It's irrelevant to the discussion


It is at the fundamental core of a discussion about wealth distribution. Namely, you should be asking the question of whether unequal wealth distribution even matters in a world where individuals have exponential increases in the standard of living over just a few decades, much less centuries.

Because the alternative, where we debate what is "fair" about the distribution of wealth implies that we should steal from the rich to give to the "poor" (because their massively increased standard of living isn't good enough - they can't just have "a car".... they need a great car, etc.). It implies a Utopian ideal where everyone is equal in material possessions and wealth - a world where everyone is absolutely poor... but at least they are "equal" right?

But it seems you all have gotten hung up on the way I put the point, instead of the point itself. Fine. I've finished making it. If you still think it is irrelevant, so be it. Discuss the irrelevant question of wealth distribution - and how you will get men with guns to steal from the wealthy to "fix" it (or not) - to your heart's content.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.


Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?
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A History of Poverty

Postby Deacon on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:29 pm

No, I agree with CS22. We can't have a discussion about wealth distribution because window units and paper plates.
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Re: A History of Poverty

Postby Psudo on Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:43 pm

collegestudent22, it sounds to me like you're confusing wealth with technology. Medical care and sanitation are clear, indisputable improvements of modern America over our colonial past. Transportation and legal justice, too. But which sounds tastier, a freshly butchered hog prepared by your personal cook, or a hormone-treated, vacuum-sealed package of ham purchased at half price because it was near its expiration date and microwaved? Is an iPod really better than the live theater? Is a digital camera better than professionally painted portraiture? Who can buy political influence cheaper, a 1771 voter or a voter today? Does it really matter whether your hot water comes from a tap or from a servant? Wealth then could buy the same (often better) than what poverty has today.

Even if you want to address lifestyle generally, wealth aside, no one in 1771 had to work in a windowless cubicle, or lived near someone for years without meeting them, or had a face-to-top-of-head conversation with someone who won't stop texting. No one's phone rang at the theater. What do the stars look like from Manhattan, does anybody recall?

You telling our 1771 man that he's poor because he doesn't have internet sounds a bit like him telling the Indians they're savages because they don't have (or want) brick houses and fur-lined coats. I don't buy the progressive narratives that life and society improve every day in every possible way. Today is better in some ways and worse in others. Today is probably better overall (toilet paper! amen), but more for its legal and sanitation improvements than for its gadgetry and the infusion of technology into every aspect of life.
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