Minx, I 100% understand your feelings. You can't know for sure if the person screening your daughter is a pervert. However, that same logic could apply to a police officer, or a doctor...

I have the option to choose the doctor. I have no control over who would be touching my daughter in (potentially) inappropriate ways during a checkpoint "screening". The same logic does not apply because there are no other situations in my typical life where a stranger could come up and force this sort of encounter.

It's going to make me sick to think of some child being approached by a pedophile on a playground or something, telling a kid that they need to check them out for security.

I'm incredibly grateful that I have almost no reason to fly any more.

collegestudent22 wrote:The TSA has NEVER uncovered any major security threats from anyone at any TSA checkpoint. The only reason I can see for the TSA policy on liquids, gels, and aerosols, is that it allows them to catch violators with some regularity. If they were only looking for guns, knives, box cutters, and bombs, they would almost never find anything, and surely their senses would be dulled going day after day after day looking for something that’s never there.

You obviously don't look that information up before making generalizations do you? The TSA is required to report to the media when things are found. From the tsa website:

TSA Week at a Glance: 11/15/10 through 11/21/10
2 artfully concealed prohibited items found at checkpoints
12 firearms found at checkpoints
14 passengers were arrested after investigations of suspicious behavior or fraudulent travel documents

That is 12 guns in just one week. I wouldn't say they would almost never find anything.

They also changed the procedures for children because of the outrage. I read this morning as of Thursday children 12 and under get the original pat down and not the new one.

Elwin Ransom wrote:Dude, there aren't many places where I don't feel under siege at the moment. Passengers hate us; my father-in-law called TSA a bunch of morons. I got a lecture from the drive-through lady at Hardee's Saturday when she saw my uniform. At least in this thread there's an intellectual discussion going on.

Though I do feel for you--that sucks--let me just say something about being under siege in these terms.

I once was a temp. This was a very brief stint in my life but it still happened. As a temp, I was once brought in to do cold calling for a survey. Not a sales call, mind you, just a survey done by a very well-regarded market research company. By Hour Two of my first day doing this, I began to feel as if my phone were some kind of a machine that sucked the very souls out of everybody who would answer on the other end. I was treated like I was in the stocks, man. Every miserable fucking instant of that two day span doing the survey made me feel like a criminal. Was I doing anything wrong? Hell no. I was calling auto dealerships and asking direct questions that the company who provided those dealerships with automobiles might use to better do their job. But that's how it was--I was the guy on the phone, so I was the Biggest Asshole In The World at that moment to everybody I called.

I've also been in the fields of: Public Relations, general Marketing, Advertising, and business development which is an offshoot of sales. (I say "offshoot" because I never had to name prices or ask anybody for money, so technically it's not a sale.) Do you realize the responses I would get from people when I would just say the words "public relations?" I had one of my more liberal friends from college break down once and call me "the enemy" because of that. Not "my enemy," "THE enemy" as if I were personally bankrupting society by signing restaurants up for a delivery service I didn't even own. So while I do feel for TSOs who get mounds of crap from people on a daily basis, you're not the only person who has been treated poorly because of your profession. Know that there are millions of Americans--including that Hardee's employee--who have been treated poorly just because of how they make a buck. It's one of the many, many crappy things about the working world.

Elwin Ransom wrote:And although I'm sure we'll be getting new or more emphasized training on how to deal with medical devices of that type, I'm not sure what TSA can do to make sure that this kind of thing never happens again.

Here's a plan: how about you start putting out a tip jar? What if the people in your line could directly impact how much money you take home at the end of the day? Think the surly, don't-care TSO that gives everyone else a bad name would straighten up their act a bit if being nice and polite would net them an extra few bucks?

Elwin Ransom wrote:So you will perhaps forgive me if I'm galactically pissed off right this second.

No I won't. If you're so weak of spirit that you break down and bawl because some asshole calls you a name and puts his own shoes on the conveyor belt, you shouldn't be working for the TSA, much less any regular old retail job at all. Secondly, I hope the old lady was being treated well -- But not profiled, because that would be bad. After all, the terrorists might start using Aunt Bea to plant their bombs.

you yourself say you intend to walk through the metal detector and push your way through our officers because you don't think our procedures are legal.

I can't speak for the others, but I never at any point said I intended to any particular thing, much less that. YOU are the one who said that you could do so, and I simply followed up with my own questions about that; since the TSA is generally shrouded in secrecy, this seemed to be a good time to ask. So you're not being terribly accurate, here, and it makes me doubt how well you're representing the viewpoints of others, though I do tend to agree with The Cid that the best course of action is to set reasonable standards, conforming to the Constitution, and not changing them out of a knee-jerk reaction to being terrified, the explicit purpose of terrorists. It's in the name, see?

Don't you dare tell me that conviction on my level doesn't exist in the real world just because I disagree with you, especially with four other people making their own strong convictions known right here. Disagree if you want; that's what this forum is for, but don't tell me that my point of view is pie-in-the-sky so that you don't have to engage it on an authentic level. That's just intellectual cowardice.

Well, I feel much better.

Do you? What do you call that, then? It's weird that you would take such a non-insulting comment (I tried to keep it from being complimentary, as it would otherwise sound, because it wasn't supposed to be praise, just an observation) as such a poke in the eye. FFS.

As to the guerrilla marketing comment, I really don't see Real Life Comics as a prime target for the US Government to try to subvert people to their New World Order Agenda. I am indeed who I say I am and I do indeed believe what I say I do. I am also not the only one who believes what I do, even at my own airport. If you can't accept that someone could think this way, then I can't really do anything for you.

Once you've wrung out your panties you can go back and notice that I specifically said I didn't think you were any such thing, but that--in response to your question--that's what you sound like.

As to TSA operating outside normal legal and constitutional restrictions, we don't. Most government law enforcement agencies have the authority to do so in the case of terrorism, and we can debate the merit of that in another thread. However, as I have previously stated, TSA is not a law-enforcement agency.

You can say you don't in the same way that Cheney can say that various things done in Gitmo aren't torture. The matter remains to be decided in the proper courts, so that regardless of our own feelings on the various matters, it can be decided legally once and for all.

As to having your rights infringed upon if you have a choice of "go through TSA's procedures or don't fly," you don't have a constitutional right to fly. When you purchase a plane ticket, you acquire a right that is more of a license or a permission to board the airline's aircraft. That right is subject to following rules and procedures required by the airline for their passengers. You are required by the airline to go through screening. I am not going to try to explain this again.

Horseshit. I have a constitutional right to travel freely, the TSA is a governmental agency, NOT a part of any airline, and I have to go through the TSA no matter which airline I fly. Period. I will not argue against such silly, rationalizing horseshit as you have presented, no matter how many times you declare imperiously that you will no longer explain it to the plebs who just don't yet complete grasp the tortured logic by which they've given up all rights by traveling. And to say that it's the airline's policy rather than the federal government's, to say that they're not law enforcement but they can detain you and have you arrested if you don't do exactly as they say, it's just the worst sort of half-hearted attempt at a shell game. Who does that kind of talk even work on? What feeble minds can be convinced that way?

I did some looking and yes, especially if you want to go overseas, general aviation is more expensive. Deal with it. Standing up for your convictions has a cost

You realize you're not helping your case, right? "Subjugate or don't fly at all" can't be replaced by "Subjugate or if you're super rich get yourself a private jet."

we rarely press charges because it's just not worth the hassle- especially considering how the press feels about us to start with.

You do realize it's not the press, right? That it's the people? If the press is doing anything other than defending the TSA's increased government control by intimidation, it's because the mood of the people is finally hitting that tipping point, and principles be damned, even CNN wants to make money.

TSA policy does not allow touching without consent, but TSOs don't have to ask for your direct consent before screening you

Interesting. Have you noticed how such a standard doesn't apply to, well, ANYTHING ELSE EVER? It's like saying the cops can rummage through my car and feel up my groin if they pull me over on the highway because I "implied" that they could when I got behind the wheel. It's ridiculous, and you simply cannot continue going on with that argument. It only makes it worse when you say the TSA isn't law enforcement.

I like your generalizations of us. I looked around the screening checkpoint today when we had some extra people up and took stock. We had three ex-military (one retirement age), a former cop from Oakland, CA, a former cop from Rhode Island, a former corrections officer, and three people without prior government employment experience. Everyone on the checkpoint but myself had a college degree. The two besides myself without previous gov't experience were immigrants (one from Colombia and one from El Salvador) who busted their asses to get to this country, get their degrees, and get jobs that (as they both have put it to me) let them serve the country that gave them a better life.

Yeah, you can tell just how bad the economy's gotten.

As to the charges, circumventing airport security is a criminal charge in and of itself, both in commercial and general aviation, and the fines are pretty stiff.

So then you were being incredibly literal when you said I "can" go through security and ignore the TSA staffers, simply guessing as to my physical size and power and the likelihood I'll run into your shrinking violet of a little old lady manning the machine that takes pictures of you through your clothes?

Depending on what you were carrying (gun, knife, etc), you would be charged with either attempting to carry a prohibited item onto a plane or attempted assault, depending on what you did after you got through. Depending on how you got through (whether you punched or shoved some people, for example), you would be charged with assault. There would also likely be a trespassing charge. Then there would be civil suits from any airline that had a flight delayed because of the checkpoint being shut down, if you were considered enough of a threat to warrant such a thing. Those suits could be for any amount; it just depends on how long it takes to find you and re-secure the area. I'm not sure which of the aforementioned charges would be state, local, and federal, but there would likely be a mix of them. And the LEOs are there to protect you from assault. If you are assaulted, call them.

So basically you have no idea what charges I could be held for, especially if I weren't actually carrying any sort of weapon or brushed past anyone. Tresspassing? Good lord.

However, that same logic could apply to a police officer, or a doctor, or anyone else who might come into contact with her.

None of those people get to grope her just so she can see grandma! The doctor you get to check out way ahead of time, and the police officer has to have a warrant if he wants to start feeling inside her daughter's underpants. The TSA staffer has no such restriction!

the people screening her are looking for bad guys, and that those bad guys could look like any one of us

That's true only officially. I'm willing to take my chances with the 3 year old daughter with her overweight mom from the midwest.

I'm of the opinion that any bastard who molests a child should rot in jail, but someone abusing a position of public trust to do it... that's even worse.

I agree (except I'm not sure why rotting in jail is the end-all, there), but you seem to be confusing TSA staffers with people who are in a position of public trust rather than artificially imposed and mystified authority.

I'd bet that both of the above mentioned officers will lose their jobs.

Oh, well, that makes me feel better. Their worst case scenario is they'll lose their government job, their steady paycheck. Not that they'll face a criminal trial, that they'll be brought up on ethics violations or the violations of the rights of free people, but that they'll be moved to a position that doesn't involve direct contact with the public, or maybe even "lose their jobs." Gasp! The horror!

I finally found the court case I looked up shortly after taking the job. This case and its associated references clarify to me the constitutionality of TSA's procedures. http://openjurist.org/410/f3d/612/unite ... -v-marquez The initial case in the references (United States vs. Davis, from 1973), establishes the precedent for implied consent concerning airport searches.

So the Ninth Circus decides, once again, that free people in this country have no rights if the government wills it so, so that's the end of it for you, eh?

Elwin Ransom wrote:In the 1973 court case referenced in that link, the fine for carrying a gun onto a plane was 250 bucks. Things change.

And that's sad. But the case you linked was a 2005 case. I wonder what kind of madness would result from allowing adults who've completed the background checks and testing for Concealed Handgun Licenses were allowed to carry. More importantly, I laugh my ass off when my dad, a Federal LEO for nearly 25 years, jumps through the hoops necessary to carry his sidearm with him (as encouraged/mandated by his employer), and the TSA staffer who signs off on him still goes through his bags to make sure he's not sneaking a 4-oz bottle in when only 3 ounces are allowed. Like I said: government job. There's no requirement to be the best and the brightest, and when you're an idiot, worst case scenario is you're reassigned. And that's before being unionized.

There is accountability in the organization

Not the kind of accountability a LEO gets for touching a child's privates without a warrant or incredibly probable cause there isn't. It's a government job, like the people at the Post Office who stand behind the counter, only there's an air of intimidation and implied authority of the TSA, regardless of whether it's Sha'niqua or Major Payne wearing the plastic badge. So worst case scenario they get fired. More likely they'll just be reassigned, like a diddling priest.

You pay to ride in a taxi, and you obey the rules on the back of the driver's seat. If the sign says no smoking, you don't smoke. Is that infringing on your constitutional rights?

If that sign is government mandated, then yes, but that's a whole other question.

tnitnetny wrote:The TSA is required to report to the media when things are found. From the tsa website:

TSA Week at a Glance: 11/15/10 through 11/21/10
2 artfully concealed prohibited items found at checkpoints
12 firearms found at checkpoints
14 passengers were arrested after investigations of suspicious behavior or fraudulent travel documents

That is 12 guns in just one week. I wouldn't say they would almost never find anything.

Heh, two people tried to sneak a 4oz bottle of shampoo or a pair of nail clippers past a checkpoint? "Get back or I'll...I'll wash this woman's hair!" I wonder how many guns were found nation wide on 9/10/01. As though the TSA were necessary for that to happen. Do you remember when you used to go to the gate with your family members to see them off? It was so sad how every other plane exploded in the sky as a result--wait a minute. It's a little like NASA releasing a news letter that a weather balloon was sent up. OK...great?

They also changed the procedures for children because of the outrage. I read this morning as of Thursday children 12 and under get the original pat down and not the new one.

Oh, great, now I don't feel safe at all. Abdullah can now just strap up his 11 year old boy, and we're all goners. So much for better safe than sorry, eh?

They're coming around. ...Finally.

There are two guys on this forum who believe so strongly that TSA should be dissolved that they would rather a plane a month be destroyed by a terrorist attack than have us stick around.

As for wearing a bomb vest into a security checkpoint and blowing it there... well, nothing TSA does. That's outside our jurisdiction. Take it up with law enforcement if you think they're not doing enough.

The fact that you don't see the link between these two statements of yours is astounding.

By the way, during the 90s, planes were not blown up on a monthly basis. I did not have to remove my shoes, strip, get exposed to X-Rays or anything. My laptop did not go through the X-Ray machine, it went into a bomb sniffing machine and that was it. What changed?

TSA Agents Took My Son

Surely it should be common fucking sense, if the person thinks they know what set off the scanner let them remove it like they should have done but forgot (people do it quite easily) then walk through again. It would save you time, save them time, save time for every person behind them in the queue, and not lead to stories like this.

…and then the way it snowballed from there.

If even a tenth of that story is accurate it still paints massive problems — chief among them being that this story combined with others emerging paints the picture of the TSA treating everyone not as potential terrorists, but as suspected terrorists. And not just one or two isolated screeners, a significant proportion.

Sure, if true one or two low-level heads may roll for this. How many have to roll before it starts hitting the higher-ups?

That happened a year ago as well, even before all of the recent issues. Just like Penn had his junk touched a few years ago. There have always been problems, there always will, they are human.

Do I get angry at the TSA people sometimes? Yes. Do I think the system is perfect? Fuck no. I think more communication with the public is needed as well as training on customer service. I am ok with all of the security measures put into place. Separate the security measures from the idiots that don't know how to interact with people though. I have run into a couple asshole TSA people, but most of them are hard working people that have no say in the mandates and are trying to do their jobs.

The lady, over-reacting, a little perhaps. But at the same time the behaviour of the TSA up until that point can hardly have put her at ease. Again I reiterate, she wasn't treated like a person so much as a suspect.

Also damn people on Twitter for mentioning it a year late, though the fact that the story was transcribed well before this current situation arose makes its accuracy more likely in my estimation.

HA! Nice.

Just wanted to pop in and say that I had a perfectly normal flight from JFK to Houston Hobby. No Backscatter, no groping.

Cheers, all! Enjoy your Thanksgiving!