Kerry wants to ban all shotguns!

peter-griffin · Post by **peter-griffin** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:48 pm

The self defense clause?

Deacon · Post by **Deacon** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:55 pm

[quote="Nodbugger";p="394444"]Wouldn't it be grandfather in?[/quote]
No, I don't think it would, even if I'd already had one, which I don't. I was asking because I'd be interested in *obtaining* one.

[quote="Nekra";p="394458"]since were going to go into statisitics, care to bring up the murder rates, specifically the murder rates involving fire arms, a european might try to find another solution where as an american reaches straight for the gun.[/quote]
Like the guy in London who used a Katana instead to defend himself against 4 thugs armed with firearms (*GASP!* criminals don't obey gun laws?!?!) who were breaking into his home and then went to jail because he managed to get one of them? Good example.

a person living in suburbia and within a city should have no need for a gun. not even to protect themselves.

Of course, we'd LOVE for a situation in which there "should be no need", but in reality there is. What would you suggest instead? I don't understand people like you. What are you getting at, exactly? What alternatives do you recommend? Have you ever been the victim of a home invasion, a mugging, or any other (potentially) violent crime?

[quote="Imperator Severn";p="394481"]I simply pointed out that killing a criminal is homicide.[/quote]
Actually no, it isn't, not when you are acting in self defense.

MissCheetah · Post by **MissCheetah** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:03 pm

AlexanderBarca,

3. Salvation, if you can show me one family that has the money to buy shotguns, consistantly buy shells, and maintain their guns, yet must rely on shooting birds in order to survive, I'll eat crow (no pun intended).

*raises hand* I grew up on hunting, fishing, or growing most of what we ate. We were very very poor and had little money. Basic hunting weapons are not expensive (and are often handed down in families) and you can reload shotgun shells at home. I have been doing so since I was 2. Ok, so I was just helping daddy. A basic hunting gun is cheap as is ammo compared to the cost of meat to feed a family of four for a year. If you are a good (and responsible) hunter it only takes 4 shots to bring down 4 deer. Never take a shot unless you are assured a killing shot. Of course, you need enough ammo to go to the range and sight in the gun and practice a bit. Still, that is a box of shells for a year. I could shoot before I could ride a bike and was taught gun safety from a very eary age. All guns are treated as loaded, never ever point it at anything you don't intend to shoot. etc. We were not allowed to have toy guns because my father wanted the act of pointing a gun at a human to be such a foriegn act that we would really have to think about it before doing it. Toy guns get you used to pointing and pulling the trigger, even if in "play". Also, animals are to be respected. Never take a life if you don't take it out of need. Should you do so, respect that life you have taken and use as much of the animal as possible. Never waste what was taken.

Hunting, in addition to fishing and gardens was how we managed to survive. There is no shame in that and I learned a lot of skills very young as a result. I also have a far greater appreciation for living things as well as the food I buy at the store.

Guns are not "evil" weapons, except to those who don't know much about them. They are tools that have several uses. You don't hear much about the millions of people who shoot skeet, hunt responsibly, target shoot, etc because they follow laws and are safe. You only hear about the criminals and stupid people who can't follow safety rules. With only negative media coverage, it is no wonder those who have little to no real life experience see guns as something that only does harm.

Edit:
Nekra, with regard to your comment that hunting is not needed in urban areas. There is some truth to that, but those in suburbia often travel to the countryside to hunt....and most of the US is NOT urban, despite what the media tries to portray. It is huge expanses of forests, fields, pastures, meadows etc. Those are dotted with tiny towns of families who just want to live thier lives. Crime is very low in most of the US outside cities and guns are a commonly used tool for sport and food aquisition. Most of the gun crime is in cities where common citizens don't or can't (DC) own guns. Most guns in cities are owned by criminals. In the rural areas that represent most of the US, it's the ordinary citizens who legally own the guns and nothing bad happens. Again, you don't hear about it because it is pretty darn boring to report on the every day lives of most of the US people.

Imperator Severn · Post by **Imperator Severn** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:15 pm

Actually no, it isn't, not when you are acting in self defense.

Do I have to break it down Barnie-style for you?

Homicide is killing a human. Not murder. Murder is homicide, but homicide is not necessarily murder.

Deacon · Post by **Deacon** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:17 pm

Excellent post, MC! I'm so glad someone here can actually give first-hand accounts of what some of us already know to be true. Very well said. Now if only we can get these nutty anti-gun people to not ignore your post...

[quote="MissCheetah";p="394494"]With only negative media coverage, it is no wonder those who have little to no real life experience see guns as something that only does harm.[/quote]
This is, to a large degree, the same reason that we see Bush as an idiot, that Europeans have the idea that all Americans are ignorant suburbanite slobs, that ignorant white suburbanite slobs believe every black male they come across is part of a gang and will rob and murder them if given the chance, that video games create batshit homocidal psychos from otherwise healthy and well-adjusted kids, etc. On top of that, add deliberately deceitful films like "Bowling For Columbine" as well as editorials and columns from people who are either deliberately deceptive or are themselves ignorant and/or deceived (it's hard to tell which, sometimes, when it's mainly leftist kids and left-over hippies staffing print and television news outlets), and then add on politicians who'll say anything if they think it'll bring in more votes, regardless if they actually believe what they're saying or know enough about it to even *have* a belief one way or the other... And you get the picture of why so many people have such a digustingly distorted view of not only the problem, but also the solution.

[quote="Imperator Severn";p="394497"]

Actually no, it isn't, not when you are acting in self defense.

Do I have to break it down Barnie-style for you?

Homicide is killing a human. Not murder. Murder is homicide, but homicide is not necessarily murder.[/quote]
Christ, Sev, when did you start a regimen of Jackass Viagra doses? Usually you're not like this. Surely you must understand that when you start tossing around terms like "homicide", you imply "murder" to those who read your posts. Police departments don't have a "Murder Division". They have a "Homicide Division". According to the most literal dictionary definition, you are correct in that if, during the course of defending yourself or your family or your property, you take the life of the threat, it is "homicide". It's always tragic, and many times the people who have had their homes invaded in that manner must seek counseling after the incident even *without* having killed the intruder, much less after taking another human life in an up-close-and-personal kind of way--regardless of the circumstances.

But to imply that an intruder dying as a result of self defense is tantamount to murder is outrageous.

Imperator Severn · Post by **Imperator Severn** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:35 pm

But to imply that an intruder dying as a result of self defense is tantamount to murder is outrageous.

I didn't imply that, you're just stupid. Police departments investigate homicide because they don't know whether it was murder or not. That's why they INVESTIGATE. Obviously, someone killed a person. That's what makes it homicide.

Let us follow what was said.

[quote="Nekra";p="394188"]its the pistols you should be banning, a pistol has only one use the killing of human beings.[/quote]

[quote="Deacon";p="394216"]
They have many other uses, such as preventing crime.[/quote]

[quote="Imperator Severn";p="394307"]
They prevent crime by killing criminals, who are human beings.[/quote]

[quote="Nodbugger";p="394314"]Imperator Severn, criminals that that have given someone a reason to shoot them, 99% of the time have given up their right to be called a human. I feel nothing when a law abiding citizen kills a criminal. I applaud someone for protecting themselves.[/quote]

[quote="Imperator Severn";p="394481"]
Did I say they didn't have it coming? No, I simply pointed out that killing a criminal is homicide.[/quote]

Yes, Deacon, I implied nothing. Cut the emotional bullshit. I choose my words carefully, in order to say exactly what I mean. To say that homicide and murder are synonymous is ignorant.

More to the topic, I fail to see why someone would "need counseling" because they killed an intruder. Perhaps if that intruder was a friend of theirs, I could see how that would be upsetting. But killing a stranger who is threatening your safety? One must have very little self respect to find that upsetting.

Post by **Blaze** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:36 pm

No no, Deacon, he's quite right. The circumstances are the same, Deacon. If you wish to argue the morality of it, that's different, but to claim he has no ground for thinking as he does is simply to perpetuate a kind of mental facism.

Deacon · Post by **Deacon** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:46 pm

[quote="Imperator Severn";p="394505"]

But to imply that an intruder dying as a result of self defense is tantamount to murder is outrageous.

I didn't imply that, you're just stupid. Police departments investigate homicide because they don't know whether it was murder or not. That's why they INVESTIGATE. Obviously, someone killed a person. That's what makes it homicide.[/quote]
Implications, sir. People *associate* the word "homicide" with "murder", probably due to all the cop shows and such. Sorry, but it's the truth.

Let us follow what was said.

[quote="Nekra";p="394188"]its the pistols you should be banning, a pistol has only one use the killing of human beings.

[quote="Deacon";p="394216"]
They have many other uses, such as preventing crime.[/quote]

[quote="Imperator Severn";p="394307"]
They prevent crime by killing criminals, who are human beings.[/quote]

[quote="Nodbugger";p="394314"]Imperator Severn, criminals that that have given someone a reason to shoot them, 99% of the time have given up their right to be called a human. I feel nothing when a law abiding citizen kills a criminal. I applaud someone for protecting themselves.[/quote]

[quote="Imperator Severn";p="394481"]
Did I say they didn't have it coming? No, I simply pointed out that killing a criminal is homicide.[/quote][/quote]
You forgot one, you silly guy:

[quote="Deacon";p="394345"][quote="Imperator Severn";p="394307"]

They have many other uses, such as preventing crime.

They prevent crime by killing criminals, who are human beings.[/quote]
Dude, are you joking? Guns are a deterrent. Their very presence causes even batshit insanely mad people to reconsider. Their actual mechanical use to fire a projectile is a last resort.[/quote]

Yes, Deacon, I implied nothing. Cut the emotional bullshit. I choose my words carefully, in order to say exactly what I mean. To say that homicide and murder are synonymous is ignorant.

See above. :sigh:

More to the topic, I fail to see why someone would "need counseling" because they killed an intruder. Perhaps if that intruder was a friend of theirs, I could see how that would be upsetting. But killing a stranger who is threatening your safety? One must have very little self respect to find that upsetting.

Oh sweet, merciful Christ. Is there a psych major here who can back up what I'm saying? I've got a conference call to get to in about 10 minutes. If nobody has spoken up since then, I'll try to look up more examples of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

And Blaze...what? Do I just need to check the batteries in my sarcasm detector or what?

peter-griffin · Post by **peter-griffin** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:56 pm

Deacon - he's right. Homicide != murder, though murder == homicide. Coin != penny, though penny == coin. Understand? If you're saying a word's definition in a dictionary is void due to the public's interpretation of the word in question, well, that's just...ignorant.

Deacon · Post by **Deacon** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:46 pm

peter-griffin, seriously, did you not read what I wrote? Why are you getting so hung-up on semantics? I was merely pointing out that he must be aware that when most people read "homicide", they think "murder". I didn't say they were *correct* to think that, but rather that it was something to keep in mind in order to ensure clear communication. I myself fall victim to such things all the time.

elroy · Post by **elroy** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:29 pm

[quote="Deacon";p="394564"]peter-griffin, seriously, did you not read what I wrote? Why are you getting so hung-up on semantics?[/quote]
ALL HAIL SEMANTICS!!

Imperator Severn · Post by **Imperator Severn** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:30 pm

SEMANTICS APPROVES OF YOUR ATTEMPTED THREAD DERAILMENT

peter-griffin · Post by **peter-griffin** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:56 pm

AR AR AR, I THOT IT WAS AN ARGUEMENT OVER LITERAL WORD DEFINITIONS. ME SAWWY?

Blind Pyr0 · Post by **Blind Pyr0** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:06 pm

SEMANTICS HAS INVADED EVERY THREAD. IT NEEDS IT'S OWN FORUM>

peter-griffin · Post by **peter-griffin** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:08 pm

I AGREE AND A MONTH

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