America- and the world's opinion of her.

WolfDreamer · Post by **WolfDreamer** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:58 pm

We are only looking at half the picture here anyway. Government's shelling out cash is only one form of charity. You can give clothing, food & medicine as well. Private contributions also skew the picture as well. Americans give 3 times what our goverment does; I would be interested in seeing the totals given by private charitys based in Europe.

I still see no acknowledgement of the forms of aid the U.S. gives that a dollar ammount can't be attached to. "Trade not aid" is the slogan; and it is a superior form of charity then cash handouts. Which is better, giving a man food and clothing or giving him a job to earn more and better then a handout could give him. Its the whole "Give a man a fish, teach a man to fish" scenario. That is where the U.S. government shines in a charitible sense

D-Mac · Post by **D-Mac** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:35 am

Elroy: Only when the percentage is higher than the dollars which are already given. The UN is being like Arnold: They want everyone to pay their fayr shayr.

Herr Doktor!: Kudos for what? I wasn't even sure what you were talking about. "Freedom" is not a measurable substance. I don't see why you have a need to force RONIN to point out that the US may not be the freest country. Considering most, if not all, the free countries have modeled their constitutions after the USA's, I would not hesistate to say the USA is the most free country, or is at least a leader in the ideal of personal freedom. We definatley have a kick-assed Declaration of Independence. (Want some proof? If I say "I'm gonna shoot you!" I can really mean it.)

WolfDreamer: Yep. You bring up two great arguments:

a.) The USA would rather help people be less helpless
b.) The US Gov't sees charity as an individual issue, instead of as a state issue. You can't yell at the US unless you factor in what regular people give.

I'm sensing a lot of this anger is masked anti-US sentiment. I hope this isn't the only reason why ya'all hate us, because it's kind of silly.

elroy · Post by **elroy** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:12 pm

Aww shucks no, we've got tons of reasons to hate y'all.

Salvation122 · Post by **Salvation122** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:24 pm

[quote="TheTallest";p="421476"]what we need is more enforsis placed on knowledge and learning and bettering the society as a whole.
not an out for number one mentality.[/quote]
The idea is that society progresses through new innovation derived from everyone looking outt for number one. The two aren't really directly opposed, though I understand what you're trying to say. (You're wrong, but I understand it.

)

[quote="Azurain";p="423516"]Wait, I observe that you're full of shit to claim that the USA is the most generous nation in the world (which you still are full of; most of Europe puts a whole lot more {%income wise} into various charities per capita... working on solid numbers but I've been distracted), and so suddenly I think that you're greedy capitalist pigs? Way to come off as reactionary and presumptive, my friend.[/quote]
Your numbers fail to take the absolutely insane amount of military aid we provide. Bit of a big deal.

WolfDreamer wrote:"Trade not aid" is the slogan; and it is a superior form of charity then cash handouts. Which is better, giving a man food and clothing or giving him a job to earn more and better then a handout could give him. Its the whole "Give a man a fish, teach a man to fish" scenario. That is where the U.S. government shines in a charitible sense

This is more an "enlightened mutual-interest" solution than straight charity. American buisness make out like bandits with the cheap labor the jobs you're discussing provide.

StruckingFuggle · Post by **StruckingFuggle** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:33 pm

"like bandits" being a very good description of it, too ...

RONIN · Post by **RONIN** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:39 am

[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="424120"][quote="RONIN";p="424080"]

Dmpotter pretty much makes the point there. You've made a statement, and now you're afraid to stand by it by defending it with nothing better than "prove me wrong"? (A minor straw man argument won't get you very far). Come on...

Not much better there. Freedom of expression is in the constitution for a lot of countries.[/quote]

My statement was completely logical and correct. I'm sorry if you live in some other country and don't get to experience what the great people of the United States do. I'm sorry you didn't get the opportunity to participate in the extreme patriotism on Sept. 12th. If you really want to compare governments between the United States and any other nations I would be happy to debate them with you. If you are smart, you won't even try to debate that.

I read somewhere on these forums which stated that the US is a democracy. This is wrong. We are a republic. The majority does not rule. WE the people choose who we want to speak for us. And when the people don't speak, the they can't blame the government for not working for them.

Posted Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:43 am:

[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="424338"]I think RONIN's lack of response makes a pretty clear statement...
It's nice to sling phrases like "Land of the free" around. It's another thing to actually mean them.[/quote][/quote]

pathetic. I'm over sears for a weekend and you think i won't answer. You should know me better than that.

StruckingFuggle · Post by **StruckingFuggle** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:44 am

I'm sorry you didn't get the opportunity to participate in the extreme patriotism on Sept. 12th.

So wait ... you're sorry they didn't get to wave a bunch of flags and mourn because ~3,000 people, mostly their citizens, died the day before in a terrorist attack?

... Wow.

RONIN · Post by **RONIN** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:45 am

That's exactly what I meant jack ass

StruckingFuggle · Post by **StruckingFuggle** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:45 am

pathetic. I'm over sears for a weekend and you think i won't answer. You should know me better than that.

You expect us to "know" your behaviour in just 35 posts? I guess he could know you off-forum, but if he did, wouldn't he have known you were away?

Posted Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:45 pm:

[quote="RONIN";p="425804"]That's exactly what I meant jack ass[/quote]

And .... excuse me, but wtf?

RONIN · Post by **RONIN** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:49 am

I'm obviously a right-wing conservative, and judging by previous posts, I don't have a problem speaking my mind.

StruckingFuggle · Post by **StruckingFuggle** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:51 am

Answer the bigger question - the "Wtf?" - then.

RONIN · Post by **RONIN** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:54 am

That's not what I meant.

StruckingFuggle · Post by **StruckingFuggle** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:00 am

Okay, I'm confused now.

You said, "I'm sorry you didn't get the opportunity to participate in the extreme patriotism on Sept. 12th. "

I replied, "So wait ... you're sorry they didn't get to wave a bunch of flags and mourn because ~3,000 people, mostly their citizens, died the day before in a terrorist attack?

... Wow."

To which you replied: "That's exactly what I meant jack ass"

hence my: "What the fuck?" ... you're seriously sorry that, say, France, didn't suffer a massive terrorist attack that spwans an outpouring of Faux Patriotism? And "wow" ... because ... wow. That's fucked up, if that's what you meant.

Oh, and ...

If you really want to compare governments between the United States and any other nations I would be happy to debate them with you. If you are smart, you won't even try to debate that.

Try to debate what? Other governments? Why would that not be a "smart" topic of discussion? Or do you mean something specific about them, and if so, what?

RONIN · Post by **RONIN** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:08 am

[quote="StruckingFuggle";p="425814"]Try to debate what? Other governments? Why would that not be a "smart" topic of discussion? Or do you mean something specific about them, and if so, what?[/quote]

There is a reason why the United States is, and has been the most powerful nation in the world for quite sometime. There are numerous reasons why millions of illegals and legas flood this country every year. That's all I'm going to say in this thread. Take it as you see fit SF.

StruckingFuggle · Post by **StruckingFuggle** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:15 am

Ahem...

In response to why we've reached the top?

We were given the advantage, and then a bunch of powerful people have guarded it jealously for decades, through military and economic might like a covetous and violent dragon, constantly shovelling more people into its mighty jaws, shitting them out after the digestion to build their horde bigger and bigger, occasionally passing a gold nugget or two handed off to those crowded around, absorbing them as a part of its horrible might instead of simply devouring them.

It's not something pretty, or noble. It's a story of cynical ecnomic explotion and military might that's played out on a large scale since the end of World War II, though in a smaller scale, since before the American Revolution. Land of the free, home of the brave, the capitalist dream, they've all been pretty disguises, dressed-up excuses, not reasons. It's never been about truth, justice, equality, democracy ... its been about getting as much power as you can, however you can while maintaining that masquerade.

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