America- and the world's opinion of her.

[R.Bloodgood]

I have this question. How many of you guys are really generous people? *etc and so on*

Spent 4 consecutive summers doing various volunteer work, including Habitat for Humanity and working at a small Thrift Store. After dealing with ungrateful wretches for so long, I have transformed into an evvviiilllll conservative. 12 months of charity work in exchange for some stale cake left over from someone's promotion is a disillusioning experiance, to say the least.

[RONIN]

[quote="StruckingFuggle";p="426665"]I can't prove itYou can say what you think, how you think I'm wrong, and why you think that ... but observation of history seems to, in my mind, favor my interpretation over whatever you're going to come back with. [/quote]

Real nice discussion. You think everything you say is correct. Please SF, let's discuss it some more!!!

But go ahead, anyway. It's an interesting topic to discuss.

[StruckingFuggle]

Real nice discussion. You think everything you say is correct. Please SF, let's discuss it some more!!!

/me twitches, and then composes himself.

Jesus christ you're an idiot.

Ahem.

/me rubs his temples and continues, for some strange reason

I don't even know where to start ... what are you trying to pillory me for? That I say there's no conclusive proof one way or the other (which there isn't)?

That my opinions on the subject have been drawn from my observations? Uhm ... And you're telling me yours aren't? I'm not seeing why this is supposed to some sort of "oooh, ahh, you're dumb" statement.

I don't think eveything I say is "correct", in that I speak 'pure, imutable truth' - what would be the point in having a discussion, though? However, if you have an opinion, don't you tend to think you're right in it, based on what you've observed so far? I would say from what I've seen that my version is probably more likely than your version, but I wouldn't say it's 100% correct, because even if it could be proven (which I disagree with, see again the Clairvoyant comment), I still haven't looked at every bit of data in every way, so it's entirely possible there could be an interpretion that seems more likely.

However, yes, I would bet that whatever your version of events are, I'm going to just go "uhm, no" - but since I can't automatically think I'm right, because everything I think and say ISN'T correct, I'm trying to have a discussion with you.

Can you understand that, or do you really not belong here?


....Heh. Trying to have a discussion with you ... for some strange reason. It would probably be more productive to bang my head on the wall until I suffer a concussion, and then talk to the hallucinations.

Seriously, though. I keep having to say "whatever your version might be", since you haven't said. You said, "There is a reason why the United States is, and has been the most powerful nation in the world for quite sometime. There are numerous reasons why millions of illegals and legas flood this country every year", and I come back and probably challenge your notion of why exactly it is that we are "the most powerful" and "millions of legals and illegals flood this country every year", with my idea of why that is.

You disagree, obviously. To have a discussion, now, instead of asking me how I know (I don't KNOW, in an absolute sense, but that's what seems likely) ... well, you ask why I say that, and I just now answer it: Because that's what seems likely, based on an observation of history.

Now ... to have a proper discussion, you'd tell me why you disagree with what I said. Where I seem to be wrong and what I seem to be missing.

I honestly am curious where and how you disagree with me.

[Herr Doktor!]

SF, You're talking to the guy who flings grand phrases about the "land of the free" and "best place in the world", then ignores posts asking him to justify himself. Do you really expect any form of intelligent discussion from the kid?

[StruckingFuggle]

If he wants to continue talking here, then yeah, it would be nice.

It's supposed to be "Politics and Current Events", in the "Discussion Topics" subforum, not the "Propaganda and Ranting" area, after all.

[mikehendo]

[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="426786"]Do you really expect any form of intelligent discussion from the kid?[/quote]
Herr Doktor!, stay out of this, mmkay? The same could easily be said of you. Don't go stirring up trouble unless you have something intelligent to say.

[RONIN]

[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="426786"]SF, You're talking to the guy who flings grand phrases about the "land of the free" and "best place in the world", then ignores posts asking him to justify himself. Do you really expect any form of intelligent discussion from the kid?[/quote]

Oh my god!!! You people hate America so much you are willing to say anything.

Our National Anthem... and I quote... "Land of the free and the home of the brave." Justification enough? You tell me what country you think is free.

[StruckingFuggle]

Our National Anthem... and I quote... "Land of the free and the home of the brave." Justification enough?

Not nearly enough, no. I'm curious HOW you think it IS. A song said it (nevermind it being a jingoistic song, being the national anthem and all), so it must be true? /me boggles, and then boggles again

You people hate America so much you are willing to say anything.

/me applauds

Man, you should be a comedian, because you can't seriously say it somehow speaks of hating america to charge you with making assertions and then throwing up smoke clouds of lots of meaningless words and poorly thought out personal attacks to avoid backing up what you've said.

[Herr Doktor!]

[quote="mikehendo";p="426792"][quote="Herr Doktor!";p="426786"]Do you really expect any form of intelligent discussion from the kid?[/quote]
Herr Doktor!, stay out of this, mmkay? The same could easily be said of you. Don't go stirring up trouble unless you have something intelligent to say.[/quote]

Fair enough, I am biased as well, I agree. But at least of I have the decency to aknowledge, let's say - Deacon's comments, by telling him to fuck off, rather than just ignore him. In terms of respect, it's not much, but it's aknowledging his input.

[quote="RONIN";p="426905"][quote="Herr Doktor!";p="426786"]SF, You're talking to the guy who flings grand phrases about the "land of the free" and "best place in the world", then ignores posts asking him to justify himself. Do you really expect any form of intelligent discussion from the kid?[/quote]

Oh my god!!! You people hate America so much you are willing to say anything.

Our National Anthem... and I quote... "Land of the free and the home of the brave." Justification enough? You tell me what country you think is free.[/quote]

Oh my god, a fucking SONG is your justification? So for example North Koreans being propagandaed (yes, I've just verbed the word) into believing their country is financially better of than the rest of the world and that they are free makes it true?

You want example of countries I think are "free"? UK, Germany, France, Spain, Japan, South Korea, Italy, and Canada, to name only a few. I've lived in the first four of that list, and visited the latter three for more than a month of a time. For cross reference I grew up in the US, and continue to visit my family in the US, who are mostly republicans. End line? I don't hate my family for their ideas, and have no feeling of hatred for americans in general being one. But at the end the day, while none of the countries in the list above are truely free, I feel much, much free-er in them than I ever did in the US.

Now unlike lousy fuckers like you, Ronin, who will claim that people's hatred for america is what blinds them and that america is (ZOMG!!11) a great free country, I'm going to actually take a few minutes to explain why I feel this.

First of all the feeling of freedom I feel from other countries is just a gradient value, since I don't think there's anywhere on this planet where, in social terms, we can feel free. Secundo, it's a subjective value so naturally my views should be taken with a grain (or a lump) of salt since one's experience of "freedom" will vary. I don't claim to detain some sort of objective truth, being a subject.

At one of the local univerisites, there's a debate club which specializes in overtly controversial topics, ones that are bound to end up in passionate, yet civilized debate. The advertisement for every debate goes in the form of "This house believes... <controversial topic>". About a month ago, the issue was the definition of a terrorist, the question of values and justification of terrorism, and the study of terrorism throughout history. The ad went something like "This house believes terrorism is justified".
The debate went extremely well, various viewpoints were brought up, there was some yelling, some anger, but overall people tried and did funnel it into structured argumentation.

Now imagine a debate with a tag line like that sprouting in the US. I can't say with certainty that the place would be trashed since I haven't heard of such a debate (tag line and all) start in the US. But as a parallel I have seen comparable events: homosexual rallies, discussion groups advocating women's right to priesthood, pacifist cell groups being raided by homophobes, religious fundamentalist, or just the law.

Such is an example of the sort of things I'd feel more free to do in places outside of the US. Life is about what you make about it, not what you make. If your freedom is reduced to your freedom from taxes, and your right to own a car that pollutes all you want without some sissy gov. telling you you can't, then be free. If your freedom is about living life the way you want to instead of giving in to instinctive consumerism; if it's about finding a purpose rather than a mere source of revenue, then I believe men and women are freer to do so in other countries.

This not implying that the US is a the other end of the balance, of course. People of the US still have consequent freedom compared to, let's say, certain mid-eastern dictatorships, and North Korea, and China to a certain extent (though the latter can be discussed - but not in China being bumped up on the freedom scale).

So perhaps you'd care to gather a few neurones together, Ronin, and put them to work on presenting your view of america's "great freedom", if you can explain it. Of course I can understand if you can't/won't... it's often hard to talk about something when you don't have any idea what the fuck you're talking about...

[Deacon]

[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="426993"][quote="mikehendo";p="426792"]
Herr Doktor!, stay out of this, mmkay? The same could easily be said of you. Don't go stirring up trouble unless you have something intelligent to say.[/quote]
But at least of I have the decency to aknowledge, let's say - Deacon's comments, by telling him to fuck off, rather than just ignore him.[/quote]
...what? What do I have to do with your being reprimanded for your caustic, toxic behavior? Do you believe mikehendo shares the same irrational hatred for me that you do and is excited to see someone of your bitter nature spewing death all over the screen at me whenever you get the opportunity.

[Herr Doktor!]

Mr. D jumps the gun. Reread my sentence, understand it, then talk.

Or here's an explanation if you're too thick to do that:
I was using a discussion with you as an analogy for my one way discussion with Ronin, saying that when you called one of my comments, at least I had the decency to tell you to fuck off (something I should be doing now) -thus aknowledging your post-, unlike Ronin who wasn't answering our questions. Capiche? Or do you need a diagram?

[Bigity]

No..even in the world you live in, telling someone to fuck off is dismissing, not acknowledging.

[Herr Doktor!]

[quote="Bigity";p="427075"]No..even in the world you live in, telling someone to fuck off is dismissing, not acknowledging.[/quote]

You do realize I don't literally succumb to the basic instinct of submitting a two word post in order to vent hatred at someone. I at least try to give it some body. And am equally glad you guys do to. Indeed the world would be boring should the intricate art of telling people they're wrong and we're right which so many of us spend time practicing on these boards suddenly be reduced to the blunt usage of two words.

Anywhooo, 9 paragraph post (5 of which actually containing something other than the usual angry rebuttal) and this is all that comes up? Not much better than me telling Deacon to shut the fuck up, which, for once, I was not.

[mikehendo]

Herr Doktor!, please stop trying to screw up this thread with your pointless banter. I have yet to see a single fact out of you in your entire time on this forum. You seem to be more content to just scream at people, than ever do anyhting even someone productive.

[StruckingFuggle]

Actually, Mike, Herr Doktor actually added to the conversation with his last post. Everyone seems to be focusing on one little thing he said, and missing where he was actually addressing the topic at hand.