America- and the world's opinion of her.

[StruckingFuggle]

Has anyone actually said that the donations from the US are worse or less desierable somehow by being less generous? I don't think I noticed any value placed on the quantifiable fact that the US isn't the generous, merely the fact that it is not as generous as other nations.

[Deacon]

The thing is, we still have not heard numbers on how much foreign aid is put out there by the US. All we know of is straight cash infusions directly to foreign governments...

[peter-griffin]

[quote="StruckingFuggle";p="423877"]Has anyone actually said that the donations from the US are worse or less desierable somehow by being less generous? I don't think I noticed any value placed on the quantifiable fact that the US isn't the generous, merely the fact that it is not as generous as other nations.[/quote]


And I'm attempting to prove the fallacy of the entire "omg but the us isnt generous compared to x country.." It's an annoying ideal altogether, honestly. We don't go after other countries for not donating the cash value of what we do because they can't, yet they go after us for not donating the GDP percentage they do - even though we already are donating more - because WE can't. We have to protect global assets for our companies, and others. We are in a position where military spending _is_ a necessity on a very large scale. Should I blame the Netherlands and Denmark for not being generous in terms of military spending...? That's not exactly strong grounds for me, actually, because I don't know the percentage of their GDP they spend on defence. However, if they did what they could and what they felt was necessary, I could do no more than say their people have spoken.

It's really just a very baseless assertion to go around saying the US isn't donating enough because of it's percentage. Why not rate the US's donation against other country's GDPs, or rate other country's donations on the US's GDP? I think you'd see that the US is very generous indeed.


And, in the end, what matters is the cold hard cash, not the warm fuzzy feeling you get when x% of your income goes to a starving person because while it isn't as much money as Mister Rich, it's a larger percentage. Which means it helps more, right?!

[StruckingFuggle]

Did people say it should donate more? Or did people just say that it can't claim to be generous?

I think the latter - but of course I could have missed it. What I'm saying is, if I need food, and Bill Gates gives me a cold bagel, I'll be thankful for the bagel, but there's no way in hell I'd consider him generous ... whereas if someone in the same condition as me got the bagel, and gave me half of it, I'd not only be thankful for it, but laud their generosity.

Because generosity, by definition, isn't about the sum, but the percentage. Which is what we're establishing, I thought ... the semantic misuse of "generosity".

[flamechocobo]

I have to argue against this sort of thing a lot in debate, as the topic is peacekeeping aid. People present evidence that the U.S. is already helping a lot, but then I prove that it isn't helping nearly as much as it needs to and should. The U.S. is giving billions of dollars in aid, yes... But when compared to the amount of money we have, and the amount of money other countries give and the recipients of the donations need, we aren't giving even close to enough.

[peter-griffin]

Well, SF, you're free to look at it that way, I guess. It's entirely irrational to me, since what matters is the money, but to each his own.

Flame, compared to the peacekeeping repsonsibilities of the US, don't most countries pale in comparison? These seem to be the same countries that are so much more "generous" than the US. Perhaps there is a connection?

A smaller country with smaller assets that makes less money than the US does not have the need to spend huge amounts of money to protect said assets; hence, the money can be spent elsewhere, such as donations.

[StruckingFuggle]

You .... .... .... /me twitches and then hits Peter in the head with the illustratory bagel

For the last time, I haven't said ever that generosity MATTERS one way or the other, just that the rich man who gives you a cold bagel IS NOT GENEROUS, compared to the man who got the bagel who gives half to a friend in equal conditions. I'm SIMPLY talking about what IS and IS NOT generous, not if generosity in and of itself is good, bad, signifigant, or irrelevant.

[elroy]

When it comes to comparing figures between nations, we always use percentages or per capita. For example when we discuss violent gun deaths, number of drug users, etcetera. But if you insist, next time we discuss such a topic I'll just use the raw figures.

[Azurain]

Elroy, that was beautifully said.

Other than that, Fuggle pretty much said it all. I made it quite clear that I am not talking about whether or not the USA's donations are good, positive things. Of course they are. But the USA is not generous in a relative sense from any of the statistics I've been able to find.

Here's a thing. If we're doing a "total amount of aid" analysis... why can't we compare, say, the USA to the EU? The EU puts a whole lot more total money into the charities and such than the USA, so then the EU must be more generous? I mean, fuck, the USA is the largest, richest Western nation in the world. No shit it's going to make more total contributions than other, much smaller nations. Does that make it generous? No. It just makes it big and rich. Generousity has to do with sacrifice.

What is meaningful when you're considering generosity is how much sacrifice went into the generous deed. It is not generous for someone to give you a thing if it cost him nothing at all to give it to you. Sure, the homeless guy would prefer the $110, but he'd sure consider the $100 a much more generous gift, since it actually required a significant sacrifice on the part of the giver.

[Deacon]

[quote="Azurain";p="423973"]But the USA is not generous in a relative sense from any of the statistics I've been able to find.[/quote]
I still find it hard to believe that you're basing your entire argument off of direct cash infusions into foreign government's coffers rather than the amount of aid we actually donate to the world.

[Azurain]

http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/foreign_aid.html

Is actually a really good article about the situation. Explains quite well much of what I'm trying to say, and hey, even has a pro-US spin to it.

[RONIN]

[quote="StruckingFuggle";p="423739"]That doesn't mean that it IS a ten, which is what he's saying, because it's not a relative scale, its an absolute scale.[/quote]

So you want your cake and you want to eat it too?!?!

Speaking of being accurate - in your sig, "experts" (whoever they might be) never said anything like that. It's a quote from one person, who should probably get credited, instead of some sort of nebulous "experts".

Somebody said it and he or she should be credited. However, I am not familiar with the who said it originally, so...experts it is.

Posted Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:24 pm:

[quote="elroy";p="423753"]Unless ofcourse you say something that doesn't fall in line with the current administration's policy. Then you're a leftie, a liberal, a commie even, a dissenter or a threat to national security, as ashcroft said about that judges dealio.[/quote]

Unless of course you say something praising christianity and want to keep the words "under god" in the pledge of allegiance, then you are suppressing all others, you aren't open minded, you are a traditionalist, and people hate you.


P.S. That hate comment isn't true.

[Herr Doktor!]

C'mon RONIN, answer the question.

[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="423766"][quote="RONIN";p="423738"][quote="StruckingFuggle";p="423607"]sure, it sounds nice that you can "say anything" or "do anything", but you can't, so stop saying so. :p )[/quote]

If we are looking at this situation as a scale...10 being 'say anything' and 1 being 'can't say anything,' the United States without argument or comparison to any other country leans toward 10 the most. So what do you possibly have that's worth bitching about? Nothing.[/quote]

I'll agree to the fact that the US, depsite people saying that the patriot act has made it into something worse than some dictatorship, is still quite free. But pray tell me, where do you get this idea that it is by far the country with the highest score on the "do anything" and especially "say anything" scale?

Nothing personal, I just want to know.

Have you lived in another country?[/quote]

[RONIN]

No, I haven't. I wouldn't want to.

But pray tell me, where do you get this idea that it is by far the country with the highest score on the "do anything" and especially "say anything" scale?

prove me wrong.

[Hidden Sanity]

As far as I can tell from looking at numbers, and actions (where troops were sent ect) is that the USA is a fairly generous nation, However, stating that the USA is the most generous nation is very presumptuous, as who that tittle belongs to can easily be debated in favour of any number of countries, especially if you bring in your opinions on the motives of why each country gave what they did.