America- and the world's opinion of her.

dmpotter · Post by **dmpotter** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:45 pm

[quote="RONIN";p="424080"]prove me wrong.[/quote]
Not that I'm going to enter the debate, but...

That's not how it works. No one is under any obligation to prove you wrong. You are responsible for proving your own points. If you fail to prove them sufficiently, then it is not up to anyone else to prove you wrong.

As an example: I am friends with a tree elf from the lands of Altrahaggoonthion. Prove that I am not friends with a tree elf from the lands of Altrahaggoonthion. You can't prove that I'm not.

Then again, I can't prove that I am. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claims.

RONIN · Post by **RONIN** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:07 pm

[quote="dmpotter";p="424093"][quote="RONIN";p="424080"]prove me wrong.[/quote]
Not that I'm going to enter the debate, but...

That's not how it works. No one is under any obligation to prove you wrong. You are responsible for proving your own points. If you fail to prove them sufficiently, then it is not up to anyone else to prove you wrong.

As an example: I am friends with a tree elf from the lands of Altrahaggoonthion. Prove that I am not friends with a tree elf from the lands of Altrahaggoonthion. You can't prove that I'm not.

Then again, I can't prove that I am. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claims.[/quote]

uh...the constitution.

Hidden Sanity · Post by **Hidden Sanity** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:09 pm

uh...the constitution.

Which one?

Herr Doktor! · Post by **Herr Doktor!** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:29 pm

[quote="RONIN";p="424080"]No, I haven't. I wouldn't want to.

But pray tell me, where do you get this idea that it is by far the country with the highest score on the "do anything" and especially "say anything" scale?

prove me wrong.[/quote]

Dmpotter pretty much makes the point there. You've made a statement, and now you're afraid to stand by it by defending it with nothing better than "prove me wrong"? (A minor straw man argument won't get you very far). Come on...

RONIN wrote:uh...the constitution.

Not much better there. Freedom of expression is in the constitution for a lot of countries.

WolfDreamer · Post by **WolfDreamer** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:19 pm

This whole debate reminds me of those Mastercard commercial. Costof 100 pounds of food seed: $50. Cost of a warm jacket: $25 Cost of keeping the world free of dictators like Hitler: Priceless

Herr Doktor! · Post by **Herr Doktor!** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:48 pm

[quote="WolfDreamer";p="424148"]This whole debate reminds me of those Mastercard commercial. Costof 100 pounds of food seed: $50. Cost of a warm jacket: $25 Cost of keeping the world free of dictators like Hitler: Priceless[/quote]

I'm dearly hoping that that implies -
Moral debt for supporting or bringing to power twice as many as those numbered: limitless.

StruckingFuggle · Post by **StruckingFuggle** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:50 am

So you want your cake and you want to eat it too?!?!

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time making out if you're trying to actually make a point, and if so, what it is, instead of just being stupid ... so ... what's "the cake", what is "having it", and what is "eating it, too"? (oh, and for the record, you properly mean "eat your cake and have it to"

)

Somebody said it and he or she should be credited. However, I am not familiar with the who said it originally, so...experts it is.

Actually, in that situation, you properly credit it to "anonymous" or even better, "unknown." Or, at the very least, an "expert", not plural, because as you said, it was someONE, not someoneS. Yes, going that far's being a bitch, but oh well.

peter-griffin · Post by **peter-griffin** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:05 am

Sigh, whatever. I'm trying to erode away the insult that a lot of people use by saying, "Yeah, the US donates the most money in the world...but..they're not generous!! Yes, that's the ticket! It doesn't matter that they make the largest impact in the world...they aren't generous!!"

I wasn't trying to prove you incorrect in terms of generosity, SF, I'm trying to discredit the whole "generosity" issue altogether. It seems like a way to escape the fact that the US still pays massive sums of money into donations.

The problem with using the EU is that it isn't one entire country - unless I seriously missed something. Otherwise, go ahead, add up all the donations and you can say that the EU donates more. That's fine; I can't say no to things like that, but I can say no to speculative fact dodging, like ignoring total sums. Unfortunately, while you've been very fair, SF, a lot of people call the US ungenerous like it's all that matters, like that "generosity meter" is the only factor.

StruckingFuggle · Post by **StruckingFuggle** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:15 am

That is true, Peter ... I have been speaking for a bunch of people when I should only speak for myself. I'll have to work on not doing that.

Calus · Post by **Calus** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:19 am

[quote="RONIN";p="424108"]uh...the constitution.[/quote]
WHERE? I have never seen that in the bill of rights.

dmpotter, statement is correct. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claims.

Herr Doktor! · Post by **Herr Doktor!** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:41 am

I think RONIN's lack of response makes a pretty clear statement...
It's nice to sling phrases like "Land of the free" around. It's another thing to actually mean them.

peter-griffin · Post by **peter-griffin** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:43 am

You think so?

D-Mac · Post by **D-Mac** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:30 am

He's going off the idea that the US was a pioneer in securing personal liberties. We can stand deaf and shout all day. In the end, I believe what the US does with its money is none of anyone's damn business.

If you tell me the US should be judged by the amount it gives, espicially when it is the largest giver, I think you need a lesson in humility.

Furthermore, I'm not even sure what you want from RONIN, Herr Doktor!. Are we the most free, most Democratic nation? Nope. We're probably in the top 10, though.

One belief I do have is that Europeans tend to be more idealistic, while Americans are more practical. A European will argue a higher percentage is needed, while an American will say, practially, that more dollars gets more work done.

elroy · Post by **elroy** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:53 am

Then it stands to reason that a higher percentage, resulting in more dollars, will get even more work done, right ? Besides, it was decided by the UN that this percentage should be the target.

Herr Doktor! · Post by **Herr Doktor!** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:31 pm

[quote="D-Mac";p="424351"]Furthermore, I'm not even sure what you want from RONIN, Herr Doktor!. Are we the most free, most Democratic nation? Nope. We're probably in the top 10, though.

One belief I do have is that Europeans tend to be more idealistic, while Americans are more practical. A European will argue a higher percentage is needed, while an American will say, practially, that more dollars gets more work done.[/quote]

Kudos.
That's pretty much what I wanted. Something concrete and analytical, not some mindless crap. Thanks for taking the time to do what is obviously beyond his reach.

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