What's the problem?

Azurain · Post by **Azurain** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:11 am

I'm not sure what that has to do with whether or not the desire to have sex with members of your own gender is a choice or a natural thing. It seems, from what you're saying, to be a natural thing, and you just believe that you should strive to suppress it rather than indulge yourself in it.

You realise that most people don't have significant bisexual tendancies, not enough for it to be any real choice? If you're 99% attracted to men, you're not really ever going to be able to find women in general attractive, or stop finding men attractive. All you can do is stop actually doing anything about it.

Hidden Sanity · Post by **Hidden Sanity** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:32 am

((A minor tack on to my previous post, it may have been easier for me then for others as I made this choice before any engagement in any kind of sexual act, it’s probably easier if it never enters the physical realm))

To be honest, I don’t know if homosexuality is “natural” or not, and I’m not knowledgeable enough on the subject to debate it for either. I do know however that there’s no “suppressing” involved. It’s changing, while there are many basics about yourself that are very hard to/impossible to change, there are also many things that can be changed, if you’re willing to let go of yourself.

StruckingFuggle · Post by **StruckingFuggle** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:58 am

The point at the moment isn't, I think, that it's changable (that discussion comes later) - but why and when did you make the choice to be bi to begin with? If you "started out" like that, and you have to "change what you are", doesn't that mean that you started out being bi because it was biological, not choice?

naval_aviator_2040 · Post by **naval_aviator_2040** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:09 am

Deacon, How many wives did King David have? I don't have my bible on me right now (I actually usually do carry it) but i remember he had at least two. If the King of Isreal, who had been anointed by God's chosen messnger Samuel, was doing a deed that defied the "sanctity" of mariage, why did God save David's hida all those times when Saul was trying to kill him?

And yes i realize that the words "a man and however many women he can afford." are not actually used in the bible. I assumed you would realize that that was only my interpretation of the facts at hand.

Hidden Sanity · Post by **Hidden Sanity** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:12 am

It may have been environment, it may have been a unconscious decision, it may have been genitic. I do know that as a little kid (in some peoples eyes I still am a kid) I never fit in with “the guys” (didn’t fit in with “the girls” either) was this a cause or a effect though? I really don’t know, even my priest and the church fathers I’ve read up on don’t know. Homosexuality is not a new thing (check out the bible, there were a couple cities populated almost entirely with Bi and homosexuals), but if it’s a environment thing, or if it’s something Satan introduced into the Gene pool, I don’t know. (yes, I know, there are many people who believe that god/gods/some divine being introduced it, or we evolved it, or any number of other things. I don’t, deal with it)

naval_aviator_2040: yes polygamy was practised in the old testament, Your point? at that time it was blessed, at this time, it is not.

Phoenix Talon · Post by **Phoenix Talon** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:39 am

[quote="Hidden Sanity";p="430856"]yes polygamy was practised in the old testament, Your point? at that time it was blessed, at this time, it is not.[/quote]

Mormons beleive in polygamy. To them it's blessed. To other religions, it is not...

Hidden Sanity · Post by **Hidden Sanity** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:42 am

Correct, when I said it was blessed, I was referring to my own religion, as you can find a religion for just about any belief.

mikehendo · Post by **mikehendo** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:54 am

hey Pheonix, the Mormon church has condemned polygamy for a long time. If you want to find something wrong with the mormons, at least point out something that is true. I am sure that you can find something true to make fun of them about..

Hidden Sanity · Post by **Hidden Sanity** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:59 am

Most sects of Mormons, yes, but not all read some of this for example.

SothThe69th · Post by **SothThe69th** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:20 am

[quote="mikehendo";p="430893"]hey Pheonix, the Mormon church has condemned polygamy for a long time. If you want to find something wrong with the mormons, at least point out something that is true. I am sure that you can find something true to make fun of them about..[/quote]

As I recall, they didn't condemn it till the U.S. told them it was illegal and basically made them condemn it through said illegality of it. But feel free to disprove that.

naval_aviator_2040 · Post by **naval_aviator_2040** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:21 am

Hidden Sanity, That is my point. What once was now no longer is. but did God say "oh I changed my mind" or did "man" say "oh that one was kind of dumb. Lets not do that anymore."?

SothThe69th · Post by **SothThe69th** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:51 am

[quote="Deacon";p="430635"][quote="SothThe69th";p="430420"]I don't think it's a choice matter, it's a birth matter, otherwise you likely wouldn't see it in animals.[/quote]
That's an interesting assertion. On what do you base that assumption, as I assume you're not just begging the question?[/quote]
There are black people right? And hispanics, and people born with an extra finger, guys like Sam Jackson's character in Unbreakable, blonde hair, blue eyes, albinos, and stuff like super geniuses, damn morons, things that aren't readily visible, et cetera, all of this, I would presume, is fully known and accepted.

Presuming one can accept that genetic deviation produces all these things, this variety in humanity, could one not also accept sexual variety being in your genetic structure or at least as something you're born with (I hesitate to say birth defect, but...)? This isn't to say that genetics are the only cause of homosexuality (Surely environmental factors, and possibly just good ol' random chance could play into it.), but I can't say that it's that hard an idea to wrap myself around.

No, examples of such practices may not be difficult to find. But that's completely off-topic and irrelevant, as the question was regarding where he claims to have read that "[the Bible] defines it as between a man and however may women he can afford."

I would think it's entirely on topic, as God not striking them down or otherwise saying anything to them about having multiple wives in the negative constitutes, in my mind, an endorsement of such practices, or at the very least, indifference to them.

Hidden Sanity · Post by **Hidden Sanity** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:31 pm

naval_aviator_2040, I'll get back to you on that one after I do some more research on the whole "old covenant new covenant" thing but I know that has something to do with it. the point that naval_aviator_2040 brought up is also one of the reasons that I‘m in the faith I’m in, as it can be safely said that the basis of the faith and the teachings has stayed pretty much the same since 33 A.D. (Err, sorry, I mean 33 C.E.)

Volpa · Post by **Volpa** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:53 am

I recently read a great book on Mormons by John Krakauer (I think?). I don't recall the title, but it was very good.. there are still fundamental sects that allow polygamy, but mainstream Mormons condemn it because they were forced to stop, because it caused so much inbreeding and abuse. So, Soth, you're actually mostly right.

Posted Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:06 pm:

And to reply (belatedly) to Deacon, white-painted dress-wearing goth boys have the option to change clothes - it's a lot harder to change sexualities. And generally, white-painted dress-wearing goth boys don't get tied to fence posts in Laramie, left to die simply because they're in a dress. I'm not sure the two are comparable.

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