A simple question about the Bible.

Azurain · Post by **Azurain** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:26 am

And yet Western Christians seem to do fine with converting people they actually manage to conquer. Their problems arise when they can't dominate the populace or destroy its culture...

And ah... Given the vast nature of the universe, I sort of assumed it was a given that we can't understand every single last thing, since we have a finite capacity... Apologies for assuming you wouldn't state the obvious.

Though at that point, I'm not sure what relevance it has. Of course we can't understand every individual thing, but it would be possible for us to understand the fundamental nature of how everything works... So I fail to see what that has to do with god.

StruckingFuggle · Post by **StruckingFuggle** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:26 am

“the westren Christians trying to understand God, and remove the mystery and mysticism out of life, and God”

Isn't that taking place, though, a lot after the examples he's citing?

naval_aviator_2040 · Post by **naval_aviator_2040** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:39 am

there is a scripture that says jesus said "i have sheep that are not of this flock" maybe in luke or john? but maybe it means thatgod chooses to represent himself/herself to different people in different ways it might explain why versions of the "Golden Rule" show up in buddhism, hinduism, and confucianism.

Azurain · Post by **Azurain** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:44 am

Heh heh, given how much older than Christianity Buddhism is, I find that analysis highly suspicious...

StruckingFuggle · Post by **StruckingFuggle** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:45 am

but maybe it means thatgod chooses to represent himself/herself to different people in different ways it might explain why versions of the "Golden Rule" show up in buddhism, hinduism, and confucianism.

Yeah, because its not like Christianity has a monopoly on good ideas ...

Hidden Sanity · Post by **Hidden Sanity** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:51 am

Azurain, I wasn’t saying that everything cannot be understood by a single person (yes, I agree, no duh), I was saying that not everything can be understood, there are some things, that No human will ever know in life, because there are things that humans simply can get there mind around.

[quote="StruckingFuggle";p="430794"]

“the westren Christians trying to understand God, and remove the mystery and mysticism out of life, and God”

Isn't that taking place, though, a lot after the examples he's citing?[/quote]

I'm not too certain what you mean there.... but if I’m understanding that correctly, then yes, Western Christians do that all the time, that is the reason I’m giving for the instances he’s citing

Oh, and for clarification, when I say western Christians, I’m talking about Roman Catholics and everything that broke off of them; aka protestants.

Azurain · Post by **Azurain** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:14 am

there are some things, that No human will ever know in life, because there are things that humans simply can get there mind around.

Well then suffice to say I disagree with you strongly. Look into the potential many leading scientists have expressed for us to eventually devise a Theory of Everything sometime...

And on the 'Western Christians' bit... *shakes his head* Most of the 'Eastern Christians' were converted to Islam when the Byzantine empire collapsed. Well, a whole lot of them at least. That doesn't speak well of the situation, certainly not well of their ability to convert others...

And Western Christians, actually, are the only ones who have succesfully converted many populations since the Roman Empire fell. They succeeded in places where they dominated the population, and failed in places where they failed to do so. Their teaching methods or appraoch to understanding god have little or nothing to do with it; it's simply whether or not they had the power to submerge the other culture.

Hidden Sanity · Post by **Hidden Sanity** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:48 am

Yes, in byzantine, the faith was getting stagnant. And your right eastern Christians have its problems as well (especially the churches that have “gone ethnic” and that case of sexual harassment with a Bishop) but the fact that they’re still in those Islamic countries, despite the oppression, the fact that church in Russia survived the USSR (broken and still recovering, yes, but survived) despite the fact that the number of eastern Christian martyrs from 1900-2000 is greater then all the previous centuries combined, the fact that it’s the fastest growing form of Christianity in north America as more and more people realise there’s something a little more then what we can’t detect with our five senses. The fact that the only north American Natives that willing converted, and stayed converted, were the ones that met the missionaries and Christians from the east (Russia in Alaska). That has to count for something, that's why I converted.

*waits to be dismissed as a religious nut*

naval_aviator_2040 · Post by **naval_aviator_2040** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:58 am

you should never dismiss a religious nut. They are stubborn, iratable, and every once in a while they are also right.

Hidden Sanity · Post by **Hidden Sanity** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:04 am

Stubborn, yes, irritable? No!
*snarls viciously at naval_aviator_2040 for calling him irritable*

((oh, and in the event that there is one person who reads this who isn’t thinking very well at the time, the above is not to be taken seriously, it was intended to be ironic, and hopefully amusing))

StruckingFuggle · Post by **StruckingFuggle** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:08 am

I swear if the forums eat my post again, I'm going to scream...[/quote]

Yes, this was posted way back earlier today ... but for various reasons I'm just getting to this now.

Blaze wrote:Tiny Corner?

Uhh... No. Jeaudism and later Christianity were spread through out the WHOLE of the Roman Empire.

THE ENTIRE KNOWN EARTH AT THE TIME.

Get your facts straight before you go questioning things, moron.

Uhm ... that's nice, but Blaze...

Try reading what I actually wrote:Yeah, it's funny how this God who created the whole world and everyone in it is only concerned with and only really shows up in a tiny corner of where Europe and Asia bump together until people started spreading him around.

Especially if you're going to call people 'morons'... "only really shows up" - you know, that could mean, "it started". Nascent. Originating. Beginning. It grew way beyond where it showed up, yes but it still really only came into being as a tiny regional religion in that corner of the world.

However, even with that cleared up, you totally missed (or refused to address) my actual point, here:

StruckingFuggle wrote:"Which is an interesting question, where was the Messiah for the asians, or the people of this hemisphere? Wasn't the Old Testament God rather fond of smiting people who didn't listen to his messengers after a while?"

The Roman Empire and just outside it's borders might have been the known world to the authors of the Bible, but so what? That's not what I'm talking about, here.

They might have only known a small fraction (the Roman Empire was big, yes, one of the biggest empires of its time, but out of curiosity did China have more land by then?, but compared to the whole world, its not so much), but God should have known it all, and that it was all populated, what with being his creation and all.

So why do his prophets only show up in a relatively small part of the world? Did he fail everywhere but there until he had armies behind him with swords and spears to forcibly spread his name? If so, then why didn't he smite them, like he was fond of doing? Or did he not even try to go to them and show them His One True Way? And if not, why not?

It just seems to be strong evidence to me that he's just someone's invention that caught on really well, like Zeus And Co, or the Odin Group, and then vectored outward when it could.

If not, then why do we not see a single source of His inspiration or influence or teachings that crops up somewhere without being transported from where it already was? If we use the metaphor of a stain on a sheet of paper, why is the stain contiguous? Why do we not see a single spot show up in a random place, far from the stain's point of origin and outermost borders?

Hidden Sanity · Post by **Hidden Sanity** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:54 pm

Well, the faith was supposed to spread rapidly, if memory serves me correctly, Thomas ended up in china (unfortunately, there were no wide-spread changes, although some of the churches he founded remain today) Mark went to Egypt, ect, ect unfortunately, for some reason or another, it slowed down considerably after the first hundred years, and although it did continue to spread for a while in the east (moving up into Russia, down farther into Africa, ect), the west didn't have many place to spread to, so they just kinda sat on their rears and argued about Theology for the next millennium or so. The roman Empire really helped the spread, (safe roads and the like) but they did have problems expanding past the romans borders, and for this, I must apologize to you.

Nekra · Post by **Nekra** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:07 pm

can i suggest some people go a read a book entitled "religion explained" by someone called Pascal Boyer. it details into some potential explanations and theorys as to why people believe as they do.

It should be pointed out that the bible was written some 200 years after "jesus" was supposed to have died.

"Jesus" meant something like Holy man, or something like that in the language of the people at the time

several other religions popped up around that time and up to i think its about 200 years before christianity with very similar doctrines and beliefs but with different names and locations.

"thou shal not covet thy neighbours wife" and yet "God" impregnated Joseph's Wife, how cheeky is that

Interesting how someone who with her husband has been trying unsuccessfully for years to have children, is suddenly considered a virgin.

and yes my spelling is quite frankly appalling, i'll correct it sometime when i'm more awake.

Hidden Sanity · Post by **Hidden Sanity** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:16 am

Mary was pregnant Before she and Joseph were married as she was only just at a "marrying age" (for the Jewish culture at that time, roughly thirteen) when your talking about “trying for years to have a child” Your thinking of Elizabeth and Zacharias, the mother and father of John the Baptist, and Elizabeth was never proclaimed to be a virgin, if your going to make a argument to disprove beliefs that you don’t believe, then at least know what those beliefs are before you try and disprove them.

And most of the new testament was written shortly after Jesus’s death (many books were written by people who sat at his feet, and the old testament had been written centuries earlier) the new testament was not Canonized as scripture until around 375 A.D.

SuperTylor · Post by **SuperTylor** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:09 am

About Christianity etc. not appearing right away in North/South America, Southern Africa and Asia:

It's here now, isn't it? Just took some time getting around to it. Why didn't God reveal himself/herself to Native North Americans? Perhaps it's because (as my understanding has it) the North Americans were very far behind the those of the Middle East. When Europeans first started coming to North America the only indiginious group that even farmed on a large scale (in Canada, at least. I'm not so sure about American First Nations) were the Iroquois. These people were millenia behind the technological advancements of the Babylonians, Mesopotamians and Greeks and especially the settling Europeans later on.

One could counter my technological card there by saying it was religion that spurned those countries to greatness through desire for documentation and the building of lasting structures such as temples.

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