Terri Schiavo - live or die, why do we even have to ask?
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1) Remain civil. Respect others' rights to their viewpoints, even if you believe them to be completely wrong.
2) Sourcing your information is highly recommended. Plagiarism will get you banned.
3) Please create a new thread for a new topic, even if you think it might not get a lot of responses. Do not create mega-threads.
4) If you think the subject of a thread is not important enough to merit a post, simply avoid posting in it. If enough people agree, it will fall off the page soon enough.
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StruckingFuggle
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Is there that much difference between bringing you back to life and keeping you deliberately alive when you'd otherwise die?
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
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Lunatic Jedi
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The big question here is how to interpret whether or not Shiavo has expressed a right to die, since she can't really... y'know, express anything. Or think. Or experience awareness of self, location, or time. Thinking about it, I suppose she's really just a piece of living organic matter without a consciousness.
However, I'm inclined to agree that its pretty damn scummy that her own husband is pushing for her death as hard as he is.
However, I'm inclined to agree that its pretty damn scummy that her own husband is pushing for her death as hard as he is.
People are like slinkies. Ultimately useless, but you just can't help but laugh when you see one tumble down the stairs.
Shyknight wrote:Getting reamed up the ass, like coffee, is probably an acquired taste.
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JudgeMental
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Not to mention, starving somebody to death is NOT humane. And it's not even starvation that will kill her, but dehydration. I heard some doctors describe it as "peaceful." I'd like to find out what medical school they went to. Literally dying of thirst is NOT peaceful, and is likely worse than actually starving to death.
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Lunatic Jedi
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Yeah, but she doesn't REALIZE that she's suffering. She has no consciousness. She has no sense of peace or pain.
People are like slinkies. Ultimately useless, but you just can't help but laugh when you see one tumble down the stairs.
Shyknight wrote:Getting reamed up the ass, like coffee, is probably an acquired taste.
[/quote]
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Deacon
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[quote="Lunatic Jedi";p="469958"]Yeah, but she doesn't REALIZE that she's suffering. She has no consciousness. She has no sense of peace or pain.[/quote]
Then why kill her? She's obviously not suffering according to you, and her family holds out a great deal of hope and sincere conviction regarding her ability to recover if not neglected for over 12 years like she has been so far...
Then why kill her? She's obviously not suffering according to you, and her family holds out a great deal of hope and sincere conviction regarding her ability to recover if not neglected for over 12 years like she has been so far...
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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Il Palazzo Sama
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StruckingFuggle
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[quotes]Then why kill her?[/quotes]
She's doing nothing. There's no chance of her doing anything. She's nothing except a drain. If she's not going to recover, what's the pointing of keeping the empty husk of the woman around, if Terri Schiavo is already dead?
She's doing nothing. There's no chance of her doing anything. She's nothing except a drain. If she's not going to recover, what's the pointing of keeping the empty husk of the woman around, if Terri Schiavo is already dead?
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
[quote="Deacon";p="469931"]
[quote="pierski";p="469883"]Personally, I wouldn't want to live this way[/quote]
You say that right now. What if in a month your stance changes? What if you are actually in "this way" and realize that you really do want to live? What if they're misdiagnosing you? And if "this way" means that you cannot tell what's going on around you and cannot feel any pain, then what makes you believe that such an existence would be torture for you?[/quote]
As of right now where I am in my life, I still say that I would rather not live that way. I can't judge my future actions based on who I might be, in the same way I can't judge my previous actions on who I am now.
With that said, I feel this is a very difficult subject to discuss. One side believes that they are being humane by ending Terri's life. The other side believes it should be called this what it is, murder.
Even if you agree with what they are doing, you must admit they are killing her. If you lock someone in a prison cell and give them no food or water and starve them to death, is that not murder? What's the difference with this.
I find this case very hard to take a stance on. I was originally with the husband and then after reviewing the previous cases I'm not so sure. All I know is that I am glad my living will is being drawn us so that nothing like this will ever happen to me.
[quote="pierski";p="469883"]Personally, I wouldn't want to live this way[/quote]
You say that right now. What if in a month your stance changes? What if you are actually in "this way" and realize that you really do want to live? What if they're misdiagnosing you? And if "this way" means that you cannot tell what's going on around you and cannot feel any pain, then what makes you believe that such an existence would be torture for you?[/quote]
As of right now where I am in my life, I still say that I would rather not live that way. I can't judge my future actions based on who I might be, in the same way I can't judge my previous actions on who I am now.
With that said, I feel this is a very difficult subject to discuss. One side believes that they are being humane by ending Terri's life. The other side believes it should be called this what it is, murder.
Even if you agree with what they are doing, you must admit they are killing her. If you lock someone in a prison cell and give them no food or water and starve them to death, is that not murder? What's the difference with this.
I find this case very hard to take a stance on. I was originally with the husband and then after reviewing the previous cases I'm not so sure. All I know is that I am glad my living will is being drawn us so that nothing like this will ever happen to me.
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Deacon
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[quote="pierski";p="469978"]One side believes that they are being humane by ending Terri's life.[/quote]
No, nobody is arguing that. They're arguing that because they don't personally see any particular reason for her to go on living, she must be killed.
No, nobody is arguing that. They're arguing that because they don't personally see any particular reason for her to go on living, she must be killed.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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StruckingFuggle
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Some (like me) are at least almost saying that she's dead already, so there's no need to expend time and resources to keep her alive.
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
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Deacon
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To address Fuggle's points:
She's doing nothing.
...of value to you? What do you mean?
There's no chance of her doing anything.
That's certainly not the opinion of a number of her family and a number of the doctors who have examined her in person. I wish I had the link for it, but a survey/audit done in late 2003 found that ~43% of people with conditions affecting the brain like Terri were misdiagnosed. People who are much worse condition than Terri pull out of it all the time. While the percentage of people who do so is still relatively low, it does happen, there is a chance, and we don't yet really know what she's capable of due to the fact that she's been neglected since, what, at least '97. The rehabilitation she was supposed to get from the malpractice suit never actually happened. She is not brain dead.
She's nothing except a drain.
She's a daughter and a sister at least, and who's to say what she is and means to other people? A drain, you say? On whom? Not on the husband, who is the only one who wants her killed.
If she's not going to recover, what's the pointing of keeping the empty husk of the woman around, if Terri Schiavo is already dead?
Apparently you are confused about her condition, because otherwise what you just said made no sense at all to me.
Some (like me) are at least almost saying that she's dead already, so there's no need to expend time and resources to keep her alive.
Seems like to every single one of the doctors who have examined her so far that every single person who's saying that is wrong. See above. Additionally, let's say she really was "dead" to you. If she is not dead to her family, and they're willing to pony up the resources to keep both Terri and hope alive, then why is that a problem for you?
She's doing nothing.
...of value to you? What do you mean?
There's no chance of her doing anything.
That's certainly not the opinion of a number of her family and a number of the doctors who have examined her in person. I wish I had the link for it, but a survey/audit done in late 2003 found that ~43% of people with conditions affecting the brain like Terri were misdiagnosed. People who are much worse condition than Terri pull out of it all the time. While the percentage of people who do so is still relatively low, it does happen, there is a chance, and we don't yet really know what she's capable of due to the fact that she's been neglected since, what, at least '97. The rehabilitation she was supposed to get from the malpractice suit never actually happened. She is not brain dead.
She's nothing except a drain.
She's a daughter and a sister at least, and who's to say what she is and means to other people? A drain, you say? On whom? Not on the husband, who is the only one who wants her killed.
If she's not going to recover, what's the pointing of keeping the empty husk of the woman around, if Terri Schiavo is already dead?
Apparently you are confused about her condition, because otherwise what you just said made no sense at all to me.
Some (like me) are at least almost saying that she's dead already, so there's no need to expend time and resources to keep her alive.
Seems like to every single one of the doctors who have examined her so far that every single person who's saying that is wrong. See above. Additionally, let's say she really was "dead" to you. If she is not dead to her family, and they're willing to pony up the resources to keep both Terri and hope alive, then why is that a problem for you?
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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Fixer
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I work one block from the Capitol of Florida. I get to see protestors all the time with their signs and their chanting and their yelling. Really, I am exceptionally sick of it.
I do not trust the man who is Terri's husband. He reeks of sleaze to me.
I believe in the rule of law. I believe the law does have some things it could do in this instance.
1) If it can be proven (and there is a new court case being made for it) that Terri's husband has not provided for her care as he was supposed to under the settlement agreed upon with the doctors who caused her to get into the vegetative state in the first place, she should be placed under State custody.
2) The money settled upon way back when that is for Terri's care should be placed in a trust for her continuing care (as opposed to being paid for by the State). When she passes away under peaceful circumstances, the remaining money in the trust goes to her heirs (if her current husband is still not married to her at that time, he wouldn't get any).
Good guys win, bad guys lose, vegetable lady doesn't have to suffer but she isn't going to get any better either.
I do not trust the man who is Terri's husband. He reeks of sleaze to me.
I believe in the rule of law. I believe the law does have some things it could do in this instance.
1) If it can be proven (and there is a new court case being made for it) that Terri's husband has not provided for her care as he was supposed to under the settlement agreed upon with the doctors who caused her to get into the vegetative state in the first place, she should be placed under State custody.
2) The money settled upon way back when that is for Terri's care should be placed in a trust for her continuing care (as opposed to being paid for by the State). When she passes away under peaceful circumstances, the remaining money in the trust goes to her heirs (if her current husband is still not married to her at that time, he wouldn't get any).
Good guys win, bad guys lose, vegetable lady doesn't have to suffer but she isn't going to get any better either.
I don't care who's right, who's wrong, or what you meant to say. Only thing I care about is the Truth. If you have it, good, share it. If not, find it. If you want to argue, do it with someone else.
personally, i dont really care if terri lives or dies, because i believe she is already dead for all intents and purposes and has very little to do with the case. she is just being used as a pawn by politicians, and nothing more.
what i do care about is why the us congress is getting involved in this case, which has already been decided in the courts, over and over again. i think i know the answer, but i dont like it.
my theory is that the republicans saw their 2004 victory as a mandate to push their social agenda on the us using any means necessary. if they think that, they are sorely mistaken. if this continues, i will no longer be able to support the republican party, as i think pushing "pro-life" values could lead to the worst internal catastrophy to happen to the us since the debacle that was the prohibition. after the 2008 elections, the democrats may be back in power and the libertarian party may become a serious contender as more and more moderate republicans like myself switch to it.
what i do care about is why the us congress is getting involved in this case, which has already been decided in the courts, over and over again. i think i know the answer, but i dont like it.
my theory is that the republicans saw their 2004 victory as a mandate to push their social agenda on the us using any means necessary. if they think that, they are sorely mistaken. if this continues, i will no longer be able to support the republican party, as i think pushing "pro-life" values could lead to the worst internal catastrophy to happen to the us since the debacle that was the prohibition. after the 2008 elections, the democrats may be back in power and the libertarian party may become a serious contender as more and more moderate republicans like myself switch to it.
"A good discussion is like a miniskirt; short enough to maintain interest and long enough to cover the subject."
That's a pretty poor point. You were making good headway unti lyou said that. I'm sure you know waht actually being a "vegetable" entails. If you don't, it has to do with actually not being able to physically do anything. You only exist within your mind. You can turn your tv off and just get up. They can't get up.Yet another thing. I vegetate when I watch TV. Does this mean somebody might get a court injunction to suffocate me during that time? After all, it's not killing me, merely depriving me of something I need to live.
That is a very good point. It is her life that's the most important thing. She can't ever wake up. Why not let her move on to whatever lies in wait after death?If the only issue were keeping the wife alive or not, in that state, and not all those shady dealings, I might have to disagree in major part.
And the right to die is depenendant on the individual and the doctor. But if the individual is unable to give the proper request, then the decision cannot be made for them, is how I see it.
Humble yourself before reason.
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