Well, I'm not advocating "project gattic", or some other sort of genetically-casted society... but! This program isn't going to work, for a number of reasons that the legislature must have been rather short-sighted to miss (but then again, how many congressmen really are even more than passingly knowledgeable about the science and technology they legislate...? *sigh*) ...
On the other hand, if you could manipulate the unborn at one stage or another to correct such genetic flaws as dispositions to cancer or obesity, well - as I just said, you could effect a much larger number of defects across a much larger number of people.
And it wouldn't be quite so far if neophobes wouldn't discourage research of things like that... (don't such inquiries violate some ridiuclous law of bioethics or another?)
Fatties beware: your nuts are in danger!
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1) Remain civil. Respect others' rights to their viewpoints, even if you believe them to be completely wrong.
2) Sourcing your information is highly recommended. Plagiarism will get you banned.
3) Please create a new thread for a new topic, even if you think it might not get a lot of responses. Do not create mega-threads.
4) If you think the subject of a thread is not important enough to merit a post, simply avoid posting in it. If enough people agree, it will fall off the page soon enough.
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StruckingFuggle
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"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
[quote="CyberEd";p="472068"][quote="Mr. Evil";p="471989"]I honestly dont see a problem with preventing some people from breeding. Eugenics could advance the human race and to some extent solve a great many problems.[/quote]
[quote="Mr. Evil";p="471997"]See, the problem with making it voluntary is that the people who should never under any condition be allowed to breed will never go for the program, were as the people that we want to breed are frequently too busy or too smart to have kids.[/quote]
[quote="Mr. Evil";p="472029"]Again, as bad as it sounds, it might actually make sense to eliminate some people from the gene pool or out right. Yes I am a stooopid n00b and all, but it might honestly be good for humanity in general if we got rid of some people.[/quote]
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
do you listen to yourself ?!
yea eugenics would do the HUMAN genome alot of good, would it be a HUMANE thing to do though ?
dragging what to where has nothing to do with it.
-Edit-
this sh* got me so worked up... man... have you ever TALKED to a "retarded" person ?
sheesh...
your being a noob has nothing to do with things
your being stupid might...[/quote]
Yes, actually I have talked to retards. I am studying to be a psychologists. I never once said that eugenics was nice, it probably isnt even humane. However, its question of the greater good. Is it better for us to let people live and breed who likely only provide a net drain on resources, and only likely produce offspring who are not much better, or is it better to reduced the over all human population, thereby freeing up resources, and encourge only the fit to breed. Normally, animals dont have to worry about these things, natural selection takes care of it for them. But since humanity no longer has natural preditors, we may have to take matters into our own hands.
[quote="Mr. Evil";p="471997"]See, the problem with making it voluntary is that the people who should never under any condition be allowed to breed will never go for the program, were as the people that we want to breed are frequently too busy or too smart to have kids.[/quote]
[quote="Mr. Evil";p="472029"]Again, as bad as it sounds, it might actually make sense to eliminate some people from the gene pool or out right. Yes I am a stooopid n00b and all, but it might honestly be good for humanity in general if we got rid of some people.[/quote]
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
do you listen to yourself ?!
Adolf Hitler publishes Mein Kampf which contains statements such as, "Those who are physically and mentally unhealthy and unworthy must not perpetuate their suffering in the body of their children." In this book, Hitler praises the American Immigration Restriction Act of 1924.
source14 July, 1933 Hitler puts into law the Nazi Act for Averting Descendants Afflicted with Hereditary Disease, which is based on H. H. Laughlin's US Model Eugenical Sterilization Law of 1922. Laughin receives an honorary degree from a German University (major Nazi research center on race purification) for his contribution to eugenics. Some figures of people who were slated to be surgically sterilized:
Congenital feeblemindedness: 200,000
Schizophrenia: 80,000
Manic depressive: 20,000
Epilepsy: 60,000
Hereditary blindness: 4,000
Hereditary deafness: 16,000
Grave bodily malformation: 20,000
Hereditary alcoholism: 10,000
Fritz Lenz suggests sterilizing people with only slight symptoms of "mental disease," which at that time included about 20% of the German population (about 20,000,000 people). Martin Borman instructs in a directive that the person's moral and political behavior be taken into account when determining whether sterilization should take place. Estimate of people eventually sterilized under this law: approximately 375,000.
yea eugenics would do the HUMAN genome alot of good, would it be a HUMANE thing to do though ?
dragging what to where has nothing to do with it.
-Edit-
this sh* got me so worked up... man... have you ever TALKED to a "retarded" person ?
sheesh...
your being a noob has nothing to do with things
your being stupid might...[/quote]
Yes, actually I have talked to retards. I am studying to be a psychologists. I never once said that eugenics was nice, it probably isnt even humane. However, its question of the greater good. Is it better for us to let people live and breed who likely only provide a net drain on resources, and only likely produce offspring who are not much better, or is it better to reduced the over all human population, thereby freeing up resources, and encourge only the fit to breed. Normally, animals dont have to worry about these things, natural selection takes care of it for them. But since humanity no longer has natural preditors, we may have to take matters into our own hands.
In psychology, there is a complex term to describe people like this :f*#ked the head.
-Professor Diaz
-Professor Diaz
a. exactly, humans are not animals.
b. humanity has ALOT of natural preditors.war, famine, cancer, AIDS, viruses and such. has it ever occured to you that a natural selection IS STILL being made ?
c. how would "cleaning up the human race" do the greater part of humanity any good ? how by loosing ones human definition, by taking inhumane acts, does humanity grow better ? by improving it's moralities ?
do not forget you are talking about PEOPLE here, people with names, feelings, families, friends - which brings me to:
d. what makes you think you can decide who's draining resources and who deserves help ? would you kill a retarded person yourself ? would you if it were your sister ?
b. humanity has ALOT of natural preditors.war, famine, cancer, AIDS, viruses and such. has it ever occured to you that a natural selection IS STILL being made ?
c. how would "cleaning up the human race" do the greater part of humanity any good ? how by loosing ones human definition, by taking inhumane acts, does humanity grow better ? by improving it's moralities ?
do not forget you are talking about PEOPLE here, people with names, feelings, families, friends - which brings me to:
d. what makes you think you can decide who's draining resources and who deserves help ? would you kill a retarded person yourself ? would you if it were your sister ?
[quote="CyberEd";p="473149"]a. exactly, humans are not animals.
b. humanity has ALOT of natural preditors.war, famine, cancer, AIDS, viruses and such. has it ever occured to you that a natural selection IS STILL being made ?
c. how would "cleaning up the human race" do the greater part of humanity any good ? how by loosing ones human definition, by taking inhumane acts, does humanity grow better ? by improving it's moralities ?
do not forget you are talking about PEOPLE here, people with names, feelings, families, friends - which brings me to:
d. what makes you think you can decide who's draining resources and who deserves help ? would you kill a retarded person yourself ? would you if it were your sister ?[/quote]
A. Humanity is an animal species.
B. All the diseases that are active in the world are being combated with a rather high degree of effectiveness. Yes people die from AIDS, cancer, war, and so on, but obviously these are not good enough at culling the human herd, otherwise our population wouldnt be rising at the rate it is, and we wouldnt have some of the people we do.
C. Many of the traits we want, intelligence, artist and athletic ability, resistance to disease, are in part genetically based. Likewise, blindness, deafness, mental retardation, and some forms of mental illness are hereditary. If we control the breeding of those with undesired traits, and encourage those with desirable traits to breed, we will in effect improve the gene pool. Furthermore, by limiting breeding, we can effectively reduce the overall population of the human race, thereby easing the strain on the planet and its resources, which would make our environment healthier, which also benefits our health. Now, would we lose our humanity by doing this? Maybe, maybe not. It does seem to be in human nature to take every advantage possible, and to advance almost regardless of cost. Morality is a hard thing to judge in this, as one could make a case either way. As far as them being people, yes, they are, so am I and so are you. They are not special. Odds are good they are not really unique, so they are replaceable. If they are replaceable, why not replace them with a superior model?
D.I never said I should be the one to decide. I think the best way to decided it would have a board of review and a set of tests that you have to past in order to be allowed to breed. If you fail too many of them, well, you don’t get to live either. Would I kill some one my self? No, because it’s illegal. If it were not, maybe I would. Would I kill my own sister? No, because she is family, on the other hand I never once said we should kill our own family, hence the reason for having more than one person in charge of this stuff. If I can’t kill them, some one else likely will be able to.
b. humanity has ALOT of natural preditors.war, famine, cancer, AIDS, viruses and such. has it ever occured to you that a natural selection IS STILL being made ?
c. how would "cleaning up the human race" do the greater part of humanity any good ? how by loosing ones human definition, by taking inhumane acts, does humanity grow better ? by improving it's moralities ?
do not forget you are talking about PEOPLE here, people with names, feelings, families, friends - which brings me to:
d. what makes you think you can decide who's draining resources and who deserves help ? would you kill a retarded person yourself ? would you if it were your sister ?[/quote]
A. Humanity is an animal species.
B. All the diseases that are active in the world are being combated with a rather high degree of effectiveness. Yes people die from AIDS, cancer, war, and so on, but obviously these are not good enough at culling the human herd, otherwise our population wouldnt be rising at the rate it is, and we wouldnt have some of the people we do.
C. Many of the traits we want, intelligence, artist and athletic ability, resistance to disease, are in part genetically based. Likewise, blindness, deafness, mental retardation, and some forms of mental illness are hereditary. If we control the breeding of those with undesired traits, and encourage those with desirable traits to breed, we will in effect improve the gene pool. Furthermore, by limiting breeding, we can effectively reduce the overall population of the human race, thereby easing the strain on the planet and its resources, which would make our environment healthier, which also benefits our health. Now, would we lose our humanity by doing this? Maybe, maybe not. It does seem to be in human nature to take every advantage possible, and to advance almost regardless of cost. Morality is a hard thing to judge in this, as one could make a case either way. As far as them being people, yes, they are, so am I and so are you. They are not special. Odds are good they are not really unique, so they are replaceable. If they are replaceable, why not replace them with a superior model?
D.I never said I should be the one to decide. I think the best way to decided it would have a board of review and a set of tests that you have to past in order to be allowed to breed. If you fail too many of them, well, you don’t get to live either. Would I kill some one my self? No, because it’s illegal. If it were not, maybe I would. Would I kill my own sister? No, because she is family, on the other hand I never once said we should kill our own family, hence the reason for having more than one person in charge of this stuff. If I can’t kill them, some one else likely will be able to.
In psychology, there is a complex term to describe people like this :f*#ked the head.
-Professor Diaz
-Professor Diaz
and I am sure you know what is best. Has it ever occured to you, that instead of killing people, we should love them?
A very good friend of mine is blind and he works very hard and is a contributing member of socioty. he works, and he is very smart, but he became blind because of an eye infection and a predisposition towards it (his grandmother was blind from birth)
you want him not to reproduce? you want to kill him? why? he has no choice over what has happened to him and you want to punish him for it??
what about people who do evil by CHOICE?
your arguement is also flawed. you want to put flawed humans in charge of this when we have proven that anything can be abused?? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? I do not trust myself with that power and there is noone else I can think of that I would trust with it.
maybe your family should be wiped out for the good of the human race.
A very good friend of mine is blind and he works very hard and is a contributing member of socioty. he works, and he is very smart, but he became blind because of an eye infection and a predisposition towards it (his grandmother was blind from birth)
you want him not to reproduce? you want to kill him? why? he has no choice over what has happened to him and you want to punish him for it??
what about people who do evil by CHOICE?
your arguement is also flawed. you want to put flawed humans in charge of this when we have proven that anything can be abused?? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? I do not trust myself with that power and there is noone else I can think of that I would trust with it.
maybe your family should be wiped out for the good of the human race.
A. no it isn't. YOU are an animal. there is a difference between man and the rest of the animals. where does the difference lie ? in civilization, in humanity.
B. unless I misunderstood the news from africa/asia of late. you, my friend, are seriously wrong. people ARE infact starving, people are being killed by the thousands in massacres, and AIDS is claimng more casualties than you think.
C. & D. so... you want a society of tall strong blond men with blue eyes ?
you're a phycology student. tell me, how do you think a society you describe would look like ? how would the average joe react if his wife gives birth to a retarded child ? who would be the "cleaner" ? how would that job affect him ? how would being on "the board" affect it's members ? are you truely capable of imagining such a world ?!
if so I have nothing in me heart but pity towards you.
p.s. did you read 1984 ? I'd love to know what you think of "the party" since you talk like an inner member...
[quote="virulus";p="473177"]your arguement is also flawed. you want to put flawed humans in charge of this when we have proven that anything can be abused?? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? I do not trust myself with that power and there is noone else I can think of that I would trust with it.[/quote]
I know of a past german political movement that trusted itself with those powers.
B. unless I misunderstood the news from africa/asia of late. you, my friend, are seriously wrong. people ARE infact starving, people are being killed by the thousands in massacres, and AIDS is claimng more casualties than you think.
C. & D. so... you want a society of tall strong blond men with blue eyes ?
you're a phycology student. tell me, how do you think a society you describe would look like ? how would the average joe react if his wife gives birth to a retarded child ? who would be the "cleaner" ? how would that job affect him ? how would being on "the board" affect it's members ? are you truely capable of imagining such a world ?!
if so I have nothing in me heart but pity towards you.
p.s. did you read 1984 ? I'd love to know what you think of "the party" since you talk like an inner member...
[quote="virulus";p="473177"]your arguement is also flawed. you want to put flawed humans in charge of this when we have proven that anything can be abused?? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? I do not trust myself with that power and there is noone else I can think of that I would trust with it.[/quote]
I know of a past german political movement that trusted itself with those powers.
Yeah and what was the end result?I know of a past german political movement that trusted itself with those powers.
Ask yourself this evil, how would you feel if you were selected as a drain??
I know I would not like it to happen to me and I know that there will be people who will use this for personal advantage
Re: Fatties beware: your nuts are in danger!
First, simmer down Virulus. If your friend is a contributing member of society, and other than his lack of eyesight, then no, I would recommend his extermination, nor sterilization. My program would only deal with those who are too screwed up to be useful. Secondly, people who do evil by choice deserve punishment. This program is not punishment. Its not good for those who are subject to it, I will admit, but its not punishing them. Now, CyberEd, last time I checked, humanity is falls under the animal kingdom, thus making us animals. Yes, we are advanced and superior to all other animals, but we are still animals. Yes, people are starving, AIDS is killing some people, but neither is working as fast as needed. And neither is selective enough. They kill the useful and useless. If we got rid of enough of the useless, it would be easier to feed the useful. Yes, I am psychology student. I dont expect people to be happy with this program if its starts to personally effect them, because no one wants anything bad to happen to them. The "cleaners" as you put it would be people who are carefully screened and trained, and would be monitored and have short careers. The board would be made up of former "cleaners" and people who see the longterm, not the short term.
As far as what humanity would look like, thats irrevelant. I wouldnt select on the basis of appearance, race, religion, sexual orientation, things like that, because they are not important. Thats what seperates me from Hitler. Now, I would not be happy if I got selected for this progam. In fact, I would be rather upset, and fight back. I would expect the same out of any one else. Steps can be taken to deal with that though. Furthermore, abuse in the system might happen, which is why the board would have to be carefully selected and public.
As far as what humanity would look like, thats irrevelant. I wouldnt select on the basis of appearance, race, religion, sexual orientation, things like that, because they are not important. Thats what seperates me from Hitler. Now, I would not be happy if I got selected for this progam. In fact, I would be rather upset, and fight back. I would expect the same out of any one else. Steps can be taken to deal with that though. Furthermore, abuse in the system might happen, which is why the board would have to be carefully selected and public.
In psychology, there is a complex term to describe people like this :f*#ked the head.
-Professor Diaz
-Professor Diaz
Or we could just not have the program. Humanity has made great strides (and had considerable fallbacks) without it. I don't define humanity as the species homo sapien. I define it as our culture, our civilization, our caring for each other, and our hatred for one another. All of our feelings, our thoughts, our needs, our desires, and our ability to express them. One part of humanity is taking care of our sick and our down trodden, to allow them to contribute back to humanity. By removing these people, we also remove that part of humanity.
However, if your plan were enacted, I would have you "cleaned" first. As you most definately have shown to be detrimental to humanity.
However, if your plan were enacted, I would have you "cleaned" first. As you most definately have shown to be detrimental to humanity.
Father of 3
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Deacon
- Shining Adonis
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Out of curiosity, where are the arguments coming from about eugenics not being "humane"? I can understand many of the arguments for and against eugenics, but that one doesn't seem to make much sense.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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StruckingFuggle
- Redshirt
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Well, I think they mean Dr. Evil's brand of "kill everyone we don't want around, and also the people we don't want breeding", rather than "discourage certain genetic traits from being kept in the gene pool by discouraging carriers from breeding, thus culling mutations from future generations."
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
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coyote blue
- Redshirt
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Keep it voluntary, except rapists and molesters (both child and adult molesters/rapists) then make it required they get one on first offense.
Other then that, who are we to judge who gets to have children and such? Only reason I don't want molesters and rapists being able to have children is because they may impregnate a victim...
Other then that, who are we to judge who gets to have children and such? Only reason I don't want molesters and rapists being able to have children is because they may impregnate a victim...
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