El Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán

[nukethewhalesagain]

So you judge an entire continent and 1/3 based on a bad experience in one city in which paranoia causes people to get hurt? You think that's never happened in the United States? I mean what if we judged the U.S. on the riots that happen every time Los Angeles Lakers lose a championship or win a championship? People in large groups do stupid things everywhere.

If there are so many of these "cultural strongholds of ignorance," why don't you name some? I never meant to imply that you had no experience but how about you use it to give us some examples?

[sergio]

Ameca, Jalisco? You're comparing my whole country to a little town? And a very ideologically-XIX-century one?

[Deacon]

What the fuck is wrong with you people? I feel like you're trying to make my head explode.

[quote="nukethewhalesagain";p="493781"]So you judge an entire continent and 1/3 based on a bad experience in one city in which paranoia causes people to get hurt? You think that's never happened in the United States?[/quote]

some examples?

[quote="sergio";p="493896"]Ameca, Jalisco? You're comparing my whole country to a little town? And a very ideologically-XIX-century one?[/quote]
And you, Sergio...if the point would've been a little lower maybe it would've simply taken the top of your head off, which would at least have added some tragic comedy to what otherwise is a just plain tragic case of the point whistling violently into the sky over your head before streaking its way into space over WhaleNuker.

And for emphasis, let me point out where your replies started to go downhill:

[quote="nukethewhalesagain";p="493781"]So you judge an entire continent[/quote]
[quote="sergio";p="493896"]Ameca, Jalisco? You're comparing my whole country[/quote]
And when you follow beginnings up with a small snippet that's been described on the forums, you grease the skids for the argument to slide out of control... Calm yourselves and set your flag-waving and chest-pounding hubris aside long enough to get real and recognize the shortcomings in order to much more greatly appreciate the legitimate positives and to help address the negatives.

Posted Wed May 11, 2005 10:04 am:

[quote="Deacon";p="490423"]I can say what I really think, because people would call me names.[/quote]
I have..."The Gift"

[nukethewhalesagain]

I will agree to recognize shortcomings of my heritage. I will not, however, agree that my culture is mostly bad and a haven for stupidity as you seem determined to argue.

[Metzgirl]

I think his point is that, even though there are some good points (though he does not state them), the problems stem from people teaching things like "Mexico si teh BOMB!" without truly addressing some of the issues the people face.

For instance:

There's first-hand fucking experience, and that includes attending classes where I'm the only non-national (and for a while the only person with any but the most primitive grasp of the English language) and they're extolling the amazing virtues of the heritage and the culture and the history and how everything Mexico is greater than anything else.

Even though the people there could not speak proper English (Something expected of them, I assume?), the kids were being taught Mexico-centered history, proclaiming their heritage superior.

The US has had times like this. During the Great Depression and before, people rarely finished school beyond 8th grade because they needed to help on the farm or work to support the family. Thankfully, the nation has realized (and developed beyond that possibility) that we need full educations to do our best and be the good little citizens needed for democracy. Similarly, during those "early" years, citizens rarely thought beyond their little community and often had such annoying "GO AMERICA, EVERYONE ELSE SUCKS" type attitudes. It took a lot of growth economically to help get kids beyond that point. Once it became possible to support children through their entire school life, parents required children to do so.

Now, because we have more education, we can break out of the ultra-nationalist mode and look at our selves without as bad of a rosey tint in our glasses. Granted, we still have some things that need to be addressed, and some people who are stuck in the old ways, but we can also look at the truth without our current world view falling to pieces.

Basically, the issues that lead to such militiant, annoying nationalism need to be addressed before the culture can change. However, since Mexico has such bad corruption, it will most likely take an act of God or a national take-over from good, non-corrupt people to fix these issues. After all, who wants to leave a seat of power when it supplies so much money and influence?

[Martin Blank]

He's not saying that Mesoamerica is a haven of stupidity. It's a haven of corruption, which, while getting better, isn't helping the people much. Those nations in South America that are getting things under control are doing so largely by eliminating corruption and providing transparency in government actions.

Corruption saps the economy, because people doing business the legal way get undercut by those that provide the necessary bribes. Crime festers because cops, judges, and politicians look the other way. The vast majority of the people in those countries are good people who want nothing more than to survive and hopefully have things work out better for their kids. But when corruption becomes a part of everyday life directly or indirectly, it makes survival for the common people more difficult, so that they have to work harder -- and sometimes take their kids out of school -- just to survive.

The people aren't bad. The corrupt sectors of the society are. Stop the palms from dripping with grease, and you'll see things improve quickly.

[sergio]

Corruption is hell here. But it's something very hard to fight. Mostly because everyone is part of it. I've been part of it. Government offices are so "good" at it, that you can't live decently without handing out money. And before you say "you think so, but it's not true", I'd like you to wait for 1 week for someone to fix the electricity or the phone line instead of 2 hours by handing a bill. It's not like you can report anyone, there is a country-wide network.

That's a huge problem in Mexico. Yes. I'd like the country to improve. That it is part of our country's culture, I agree. I've said several times in these forums (feel free to run a search for my posts on Politics) I'm not a fan of Mexico. That doesn't entitle anyone to criticize just because almost noone speaks English. Maybe Deacon attended some very bad history lessons as well, because I don't remember hearing we always were the top of the world (I never listened good things about the US either, tho).

And about the "tortilla factor", I'd recommend you, Deacon, to stop being lamely polite with your insults just because you want to look cool. You've been insulting us, with a good reason or without it all over this thread, and I don't think anyone'd like me to say "all american republicans are stupid" whether I was right or not. It's rude, and it's not a way to try to make a point.

If you didn't like my country while you lived here, it's not my personal fault. You started doing an off-thread comment just to insult the whole country, not just Mecha, and I won't let it go. Unfortunately, only insults against americans can be treated with mods.

Now I'll shut up.

[SunTzu]

On that topic, does anyone have any good suggestions about how to stop this kind of large scale corruption? Ive got friends in mexico, and ive got a friend in Kenya, a country whis is supposed to have the largest amounts of bribes in the entire world. It isnt hard to get out of nearly any crime over there, just by handing over some money.

[Deacon]

Are you unfamiliar with the Tortilla Factor? It's in reference to the population, especially among the poorer people, having a diet that does not sufficiently provide for the ability of the individual to reach anywhere near their potential in development, especially mentally. The learn-by-rote education system doesn't help, but even that is often hampered by a brain that's being sold short by diet.

[Fixer]

Over here in Florida, we don't encounter too many Mexicans. The ones we do encounter generally work under the table for the fruit-picking industries. I used to encounter a lot of them when I worked in the rent-to-own industry (shudder). You could almost bet on the fact that when the workers got paid, they would be down renting out furniture or appliance for their little barely-standing trailers on the back end of some farm somewhere (I would know what it was like because I would go on the deliveries). They were always nice and polite, but they didn't really seem to have much of an idea about how to handle capitalism. Usually I ended up having to go back out several months later when they refused to make payments on whatever they were renting. Sometimes they'd try to pay on the spot but it was policy that the item had to be returned and they could re-rent it if they paid a higher premium.

They simply are not educated enough to know better. All they want is to go from one day to the next and not get in trouble. They usually never have higher ambitions for themselves, but boy did they get onto their kids for not doing THEIR homework. They had higher standards for their kids than for themselves.

I just did my job. I was not in a position to help back then and largely just did what I could to help out when I had an opportunity.

[StruckingFuggle]

The only way to truly stop corruption is to make people find the idea intolerable. A close second that can nearly accomplish the same is to make it SO unpalatable to the VAST majority of the people that they stamp it out, through legislative or physical violence.

Other than that, really ... its not that easy.

[nukethewhalesagain]

The problem in Latin America is that corruption is much more profitable than the clean living. The drug trade is so powerful and takes over so many countries that it really would take a multinational cooperative effort to stamp it out (this has to include the U.S. since its people are the number 1 customers).

I have never heard of the "Tortilla Factor" or its supposed effect on the brain. A simple search on google didn't lead anywhere either.

[Deacon]

It's not an "official disease" or something like that. It's kind of a colloquial term...

[Martin Blank]

It's also clearly offending people, so please stop using it.

[Deacon]