Can you believe this?

[HTRN]

Link

Instead of deporting them, we're taking away land from citizens to give to illegals.. Unbelievable.


HTRN

[livesofbrian]

Two Salvadoran immigrants

ummm, where does it say that they are illegal immigrants? I think you read this wrong.

[pc486]

Not only were the immigrants legal but the land was part of the settlement. I haven't read the actual judgement yet (and I probably will when I get home) but it looks like the immigrants sued the owner over hostile ejection and won. What's the issue here?

[HTRN]

They were trespassing.

They were forcefully ejected.

How does this merit the siezure of land and giving to these two?

They should be serving time in jail for trespassing.


HTRN

[Deacon]

A better thread subject would be appreciated, but no, I cannot.

Posted Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:47 pm:

No, to correct some misunderstandings, the immigrants were NOT legally in the US. Just as an aside, I fucking hate the term "undocumented workers". Even "illegal immigrants" is pretty generous, as they're more like "international tresspassers". Anyway, see The NY Times (may require registration) for more info. In fact, since it requires registration:

2 Illegal Immigrants Win Arizona Ranch in Court

By ANDREW POLLACK
Published: August 19, 2005

DOUGLAS, Ariz., Aug. 18 - Spent shells litter the ground at what is left of the firing range, and camouflage outfits still hang in a storeroom. Just a few months ago, this ranch was known as Camp Thunderbird, the headquarters of a paramilitary group that promised to use force to keep illegal immigrants from sneaking across the border with Mexico.

[Camp Thunderbird is two miles from the Mexican border.]

Now, in a turnabout, the 70-acre property about two miles from the border is being given to two immigrants whom the group caught trying to enter the United States illegally.

The land transfer is being made to satisfy judgments in a lawsuit in which the immigrants had said that Casey Nethercott, the owner of the ranch and a former leader of the vigilante group Ranch Rescue, had harmed them.

"Certainly it's poetic justice that these undocumented workers own this land," said Morris S. Dees Jr., co-founder and chief trial counsel of the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Ala., which represented the immigrants in their lawsuit.

Mr. Dees said the loss of the ranch would "send a pretty important message to those who come to the border to use violence."

The surrender of the ranch comes as the governors of Arizona and New Mexico have declared a state of emergency because of the influx of illegal immigrants and related crime along the border.

Bill Dore, a Douglas resident briefly affiliated with Ranch Rescue who is still active in the border-patrolling Minuteman Project, called the land transfer "ridiculous."

"The illegals are coming over here," Mr. Dore said. "They are getting the American property. Hell, I'd come over, too. Get some American property, make some money from the gringos."

The immigrants getting the ranch, Edwin Alfredo Mancía Gonzáles and Fátima del Socorro Leiva Medina, could not be reached for comment. Kelley Bruner, a lawyer at the law center, said they did not want to speak to the news media but were happy with the outcome.

Ms. Bruner said that Mr. Mancía and Ms. Leiva, who are from El Salvador but are not related, would not live at the ranch and would probably sell it. Mr. Nethercott bought the ranch in 2003 for $120,000.

Mr. Mancía, who lives in Los Angeles, and Ms. Leiva, who lives in the Dallas area, have applied for visas that are available to immigrants who are the victims of certain crimes and who cooperate with the authorities, Ms. Bruner said. She said that until a decision was made on their applications, they could stay and work in the United States on a year-to-year basis.

Mr. Mancía and Ms. Leiva were caught on a ranch in Hebbronville, Tex., in March 2003 by Mr. Nethercott and other members of Ranch Rescue. The two immigrants later accused Mr. Nethercott of threatening them and of hitting Mr. Mancía with a pistol, charges that Mr. Nethercott denied. The immigrants also said the group gave them cookies, water and a blanket and let them go after an hour or so.

The Salvadorans testified against Mr. Nethercott when he was tried by Texas prosecutors. The jury deadlocked on a charge of pistol-whipping but convicted Mr. Nethercott, who had previously served time in California for assault, of gun possession, which is illegal for a felon. He is now serving a five-year sentence in a Texas prison.

Mr. Mancía and Ms. Leiva also filed a lawsuit against Mr. Nethercott; Jack Foote, the founder of Ranch Rescue; and the owner of the Hebbronville ranch, Joe Sutton. The immigrants said the ordeal, in which they feared that they would be killed by the men they thought were soldiers, had left them with post-traumatic stress.

Mr. Sutton settled for $100,000. Mr. Nethercott and Mr. Foote did not defend themselves, so the judge issued default judgments of $850,000 against Mr. Nethercott and $500,000 against Mr. Foote.

Mr. Dees said Mr. Foote appeared to have no substantial assets, but Mr. Nethercott had the ranch. Shortly after the judgment, Mr. Nethercott gave the land to his sister, Robin Albitz, of Prescott, Ariz. The Southern Poverty Law Center sued the siblings, saying the transfer was fraudulent and was meant to avoid the judgment.

Ms. Albitz, a nursing assistant, signed over the land to the two immigrants last week.

[Silux]

It's unfortunate how things worked out, but it serves as an example for volunteer border patrol groups and people who take the law into their own hands.

[StruckingFuggle]

I don't see what's so unbelievable about it. Outrageous, sure, but unbelievable?

Wow, some people are more optimistic than I would have thought ...

Man, that's so outrageously ridiculous I can't even at the thought of "a paramilitary group that promised to use force to keep illegal immigrants from sneaking across the border with Mexico" getting smacked ...

[livesofbrian]

thx for clarifying deacon, the article HTRN posted wasn't being clear. ya thats wack, but people shouldn't take the law into their own hands...

[Deacon]

It's hard to read Fuggle's post. Fuggle, is that sarcasm, or what? I'm being honest when I say I'm not sure what it is you were trying to say.

Out of curiosity, Silux, what do you mean "people who take the law into their own hands"? Are you saying that if you catch someone trespassing on your property at night you do not have a right to run them off or to apprehend them and hold them for authorities, etc? At what point do criminals have to worry about committing crimes on private property?

Posted Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:55 pm:

If you don't grasp the ridiculousness of what happened here, you're not reading very carefully.

Bill Dore, a Douglas resident briefly affiliated with Ranch Rescue who is still active in the border-patrolling Minuteman Project, called the land transfer "ridiculous."

"The illegals are coming over here," Mr. Dore said. "They are getting the American property. Hell, I'd come over, too. Get some American property, make some money from the gringos."

That man is right on. Why? Keep reading.

Mr. Mancía, who lives in Los Angeles, and Ms. Leiva, who lives in the Dallas area, have applied for visas that are available to immigrants who are the victims of certain crimes and who cooperate with the authorities, Ms. Bruner said. She said that until a decision was made on their applications, they could stay and work in the United States on a year-to-year basis.

...

Mr. Mancía and Ms. Leiva also filed a lawsuit against Mr. Nethercott; Jack Foote, the founder of Ranch Rescue; and the owner of the Hebbronville ranch, Joe Sutton. The immigrants said the ordeal, in which they feared that they would be killed by the men they thought were soldiers, had left them with post-traumatic stress.

Think about it. This is perfect. If you're here illegally, go wandering around through people's property until someone catches you. Then claim "post-traumatic stress" when you're caught, sue them, take their property and hundreds of thousands of dollars that don't belong to you that you somehow manage to win in this joke of a judicial system when you're "harmed" in the process of committing multiple crimes. And as a bonus, the dumbass Americans will actually give you a visa as a result! The only way to lose is if you make the mistake of wandering onto someone's land in a state where it's perfectly legal to shoot and kill tresspassers after dark. Think about it. If you owned a ranch and knew that you had to either let illegals have free reign to tresspass as much as they want or be sued and have your ranch taken away, I think I might be a little quick on the draw myself. It's safer for them to shoot the illegals than to risk the illegals suing them or their families suing them if the illegals die of exposure or thirst or exhaustion on your property for being "harmed".

"Certainly it's poetic justice that these undocumented workers own this land," said Morris S. Dees Jr., co-founder and chief trial counsel of the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Ala., which represented the immigrants in their lawsuit.

I hope the lawyer that thought this one up (apparently Mr. Dees) ends up being gangraped and robbed by a group of illegals. THAT would be "poetic justice."

This is just so fucking back-asswards it's ridiculous. Just fucking ridiculous.

The immigrants also said the group gave them cookies, water and a blanket and let them go after an hour or so.

[StruckingFuggle]

No, Deacon, it was entirely devoid of sarcasm. I think it's ridiculous and outrageous, but at the same time it comes to me as absolutely no surprise that it happened.

As for the bit about getting a from it, normally if something bad happened to the people this happened to, I'd tend to smile from it ... however, this is so ridiculous and offensive that I can't even get a chuckle out of it. It's just ... graagh, wtf? It's a lot like what happened with New London v. Kelo. It's just Not Right.

Clearer?

[Blaze]

I don't know about unbelieveable, but it IS disgusting. I BELIEVE, in Michigan, asside from lethal force, if you have "No Tresspassing" posted, you can pretty much do what you want to trespassers.

[StruckingFuggle]

"pretty much do what you want" as long as its short of lethal force? o.O ... so if someone trespasses, you can do otherwise illegal things to them?

[pc486]

Fatima Medina and Edwin Gonzales were chased, surrounded, aimed at with loaded weapons, unlawfully detained, physically searched, assulted, and finally robbed. Joseph Sutton later threatened their life. It is these felony actions (aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and unlawful restraint) that allowed the two, then illegal immigrants, to become legal immigrants. Since then they were legal they filed a civil suit and it is this suit that got them the land settlement.

Please note that "post-traumatic stress" will not land you legal immigration status. Felony charges against an aggressor will.

I gathered this infro from Leiva vs. Ranch Rescue Texas (Cause No. CC-03-77) and from the Austin American Statesman (article by Mark Lisheron dated 11/2/2003).

[Silux]

Exactly. There's protecting you and yours and your property, and then there's vigilatism. It should be pointed out that they weren't awarded the property they were trespassing on. They were awarded Northcutt's (the guy who pistol whipped them) ranch as payment for the default judgement against him when he failed to even show up for court. So Deacon, your hypothetical-slippery-slope-parallel isn't spot on.

I like the related article from the orginal link:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/crime/ ... 5d704.html

Not exactly an upstanding guy. If nothing else, this will make property owners think twice before hiring vigilantes to police their property, and it will make those vigilantes think twice before skipping their trial date.

[Rileyrat]

What I gather is these two just won a lottery of sorts. They were here illegally and had the U.S. citizens done the legal things needed the two would have been deported. Problem number one was that there was a convicted felon carrying a firearm and apparently leading this band of madmen. I get the two wrongs don't make a right part of this and I do feel that they have lucked out with this apparent loop hole but it is what it is. Only out come that would of made me happier is if they would of gotten the full amount awarded from these jackasses and then been sent back home. This would have addressed the illigal actions on both sides in my view.