Skuzzo Brings Up A Good One

[Deacon]

[Arminius]

[quote="peter-griffin";p="543615"]stop being racist cyber

also lock this thread[/quote]
Don't need to lock it, just leave it.

[Martin Blank]

And now you guys are clearly off of the school grounds. Please end it.

[Rileyrat]

Meh, hden't looked here for a few days. Pleanty I culd say about the remark put fourth but I'll leave most of it alone as to not antagonize MB. I will however talk on the nonflamable stuff.

The benchmark I'm talking about MB is more or less any country that can be compaired to the US properly. No real A and B group, but if a person were to use common sense you can easily come up with some reasonable places to compare the US with. You obviously can't compare it to war torn countries or third world countries but realisticly you can judge us against most western European countries, and several other places.


CyberEd, I didn't say that it doesn't exsist every where, you're breathing more into it han what I said. While it does tend to be confined to racial slurs and such there is alot of tension built up under the surface simply because we take all the steps to mask the proble but so few to fix it.

As to debunk the two flamers. Peter, by your own line of thinking I would be a much better source than you to determine somethinglike this. If you being of Russian desent makes you some kind of expert on Russian life and Russian politics, then my Hebrew, Mexican, and British background would more than make me an expert here. Now do you see how silly your entire stance was on the previous subject? You have offered nothing but personal opinion and represented it as facts simply because of your background. Not to mention nytime someone offers a different opinion from yours you simply flame em. Good job, now you never have to question your narrow minded views. Go back and look at the general response you get, notice a trend? Kinda seems like most everyone keeps writing you off and simply ignoring the majority of what you say. That tends to happen when your only way to back up your own ideas is by trying t find fault in others personally.

Deacon, I clearly see that you have a differense of opinion, on what do you base it? Easy to defend your stance on suject if all you do is flame everyone elses. How about this, instead of always expecting everyone to prove thier idea right, why don't you prove them wrong minus the personal insults? Who knows, maybe, just maybe people might take the two of you more seriously.

[peter-griffin]

Peter, by your own line of thinking I would be a much better source than you to determine somethinglike this. If you being of Russian desent makes you some kind of expert on Russian life and Russian politics, then my Hebrew, Mexican, and British background would more than make me an expert here.

you're so hot:

i am not entirely oblivious to the russian experience, and though certainly not versed in it like a russian citizen, i am probably more knowledgeable about russia than makh or anyone else thinks that i am

yeah im a self-proclaimed expert all right.

You have offered nothing but personal opinion and represented it as facts simply because of your background.

i love you:

i don't have a negative view of the country in general, i just like antagonizing an overzealous asshole who tells me where i get my information and labels that source as western propoganda.

what other claims have i made, sir awesome?

Deacon, I clearly see that you have a differense of opinion, on what do you base it? Easy to defend your stance on suject if all you do is flame everyone elses. How about this, instead of always expecting everyone to prove thier idea right, why don't you prove them wrong minus the personal insults? Who knows, maybe, just maybe people might take the two of you more seriously.

you're claiming america is racist because of the encounters you've experienced with other people. you have offered nothing but personal opinion and represented it as facts simply because your close friends and family said it.

Kinda seems like most everyone keeps writing you off and simply ignoring the majority of what you say.

yes everyone ignores what i say, clearly

That tends to happen when your only way to back up your own ideas is by trying t find fault in others personally.

you're right. it isn't your fault you have the intellectual capacity of several shards of broken glass, so i shouldn't point it out.

[Rileyrat]

[quote="peter-griffin";p="543940"]you're so hot:[/quote]
good job at proving my point, lets keep going and see how many more you can do!

[quote="peter-griffin";p="543940"]

i am not entirely oblivious to the russian experience, and though certainly not versed in it like a russian citizen, i am probably more knowledgeable about russia than makh or anyone else thinks that i am

yeah im a self-proclaimed expert all right.[/quote]

good job at jumping both sidesof the fence. A few posts ago to hear you tell it, you were the Russian states official records keeper on well, everything.

You have offered nothing but personal opinion and represented it as facts simply because of your background.

i love you:

[quote="peter-griffin";p="543940"]

i don't have a negative view of the country in general, i just like antagonizing an overzealous asshole who tells me where i get my information and labels that source as western propoganda.

what other claims have i made, sir awesome?[/quote]

HOW Do you keep one hoping that fence, it's just flat out amazing that you so easily display yourself as having both opinions.

[quote="peter-griffin";p="543940"]

Deacon, I clearly see that you have a differense of opinion, on what do you base it? Easy to defend your stance on suject if all you do is flame everyone elses. How about this, instead of always expecting everyone to prove thier idea right, why don't you prove them wrong minus the personal insults? Who knows, maybe, just maybe people might take the two of you more seriously.

you're claiming america is racist because of the encounters you've experienced with other people. you have offered nothing but personal opinion and represented it as facts simply because your close friends and family said it.[/quote]

For someone that claims to be so intellectually superior you sure had a hard time realizing that a topic like racisim is always going to be based on personal feeling. Nor did I ever represent my personal feelings s facts, like you yourself did. Even at the point of being confronted on the fact you still acted like it was viable, for you to attack me on the same basis is well, silly and childish.

[quote="peter-griffin";p="543940"]

Kinda seems like most everyone keeps writing you off and simply ignoring the majority of what you say.

yes everyone ignores what i say, clearly [/quote]

sorry, that was supposed to be an or, reguardless it still holds fairy true.

[quote="peter-griffin";p="543940"]

That tends to happen when your only way to back up your own ideas is by trying t find fault in others personally.

you're right. it isn't your fault you have the intellectual capacity of several shards of broken glass, so i shouldn't point it out.[/quote] Considering the source I'll just write it off immature useless drivel. On that note, I'll simple bow out and allow peter the joy of feeling a hallow victory simply because I don't care to deal with another child.

[Deacon]

[quote="Rileyrat";p="543889"]Deacon, I clearly see that you have a differense of opinion, on what do you base it? Easy to defend your stance on suject if all you do is flame everyone elses. How about this, instead of always expecting everyone to prove thier idea right, why don't you prove them wrong minus the personal insults?[/quote]
Actually, you are the one who made the allegation, and it is up to you to prove yourself right other than saying "yuh-huh!" I honestly don't feel it's reasonable to be asked to debunk a sweeping generalization made to cover 300 million people over nearly 10 million square kilometers, especially when there's been no effort to actually establish that sweeping generalization as true. Do you really think it's reasonable to demand that of me? It's easy to make an unqualified and vaguely defined statement and then sit back and demand that others find a way to actively prove it wrong.

Who knows, maybe, just maybe people might take the two of you more seriously.

I don't know about Peter, he's an adult and can speak for himself, but seriously I'm fine where I am. Until you decided to make wild claims and hoot and screech with indignance when I treated it about as seriously as it deserved, you didn't seem to have too big a problem with me.

[Rileyrat]

Well for clarification, I was going to elaborate more but didn't come back to the thread until after the both of you had decided to go off on a tanget that was really, quite honestly, uncalled for. For a good while I didn't even bother posting anything seening as it looked that it was about to get locked.

I don't really have too much of a problem with you due to the fact that you are atleast capable of making well poised arguments, with lots of information in them. About the only thing that does bother me is that anytime you feel the need to flame you throw that part out and just start name-calling and such unwarentedly, hardly and adult reaction. Then again, in light of most of your posts I was a bit out of line, mostly just angry at someone comming in like peter did, making wild accusations then getting all bent when someone did the same. When you are considering an idea like prejudices almost anything on the idea is going to have to be personal feelings. About the only real statistic that can be scrounged would be hate crimes and even that wouldn't be a good way to guage things. When considering a topic like this, it would simply be less combative and definatly more progressive if you atleast offered you opinion rather than trying to goad someone into a flame war...

Now, for as why I feel that America is in such a poor state as far as prejudice is concerned. Well first let me say that I don't want people to get the wrong idea and think we haven't made progress, and lots of it, is a short amount of time. Just that most of our recent actions have been to mask the problem rather than deal with it properly. Also, when you talk about any kind of prejudice, everyone jumps to the whole white/black thing. I'm looking byond that. I have lived in many, many different parts of the US in the last 10 years, as well as dealt with alot of people from other countries. Prejudices have always been an idea of intrest to me, it isn't really something that was common place in my family. Growing up in rual Texas it was a very common occurance in every day life, just not in my home.

I spent a bit of time on the east coast of the US (New Jersey to D.C. area). Alot of time all over the mid-west and Colorado. Not to mention a decent amount of time in SoCal. While in these areas I always observed, asked, and listened about it. The biggest problem area I could see what in the mid-west, where it can still be pretty hard on a person if you don't come from a white family. On the east coast and socal, you start to realize that people want to pick and choose what stereo-types they want to go and what ones they want to keep. Not to mention that people of minority groups what to scream prejudice everytime things didn't go the way they wanted it to. I'm not just limiting myself to race either just so you know.

The largest problem I see now days, on the race side of things, is that most every person of some Arabic decent is damn near auto-labeled possible terrorist, people seemed to have just forgotten good ole Timmy in Oklahoma, or the Colombine school shooting having been perpitrated by middle-classed white kids. You also have to note that even now calling someone a communist is intended to be a slanderous remark, nevermind that the average person living in a communist country was just trying to get by, much like most of us. It's in the average, everyday American's speech, attitude, and actions, while more obvious in some areas than others. It isn't hard to get the general populace of the US to get all worked up about someone that comes from a slightly different situation than ours, and a different apperance only seems to help.

[Martin Blank]

[quote="Rileyrat";p="542965"]I should clarify, when you use the normal benchmark the US gets compaired against, we are very racist.[/quote]

[quote="Rileyrat";p="543889"]The benchmark I'm talking about MB is more or less any country that can be compaired to the US properly. No real A and B group, but if a person were to use common sense you can easily come up with some reasonable places to compare the US with.[/quote]
So no real benchmark, other than anecdotal perceptions?

When you said "the normal benchmark" I took you to mean some published benchmark that measured the success of minorities in some other nation or set of nations against those in the US.

[Rileyrat]

I was more or less reffering to the countries we tend to always get compaired to on most any topic. The U.K. and Australia are two of the most common for the US to get roughed against. Every person that I have talked to, from one of these two or a simmular nation, always commented about how racial tension is very high and up front in the US. Whereas it tends to be a much smaller issue in thier homelands.

[Euthanatos]

I don't see how people can honestly claim there is huge racial tension in the U.S., or that we're racist in general.
Who's we, for starters? I'm willing to bet you'd think of Texas as a "racist" place (an informal poll of people I know and don't hate concluded Texas and most of the South to be "most racist"), yet Texas is currently over 50% Hispanic. Numerically speaking, hate crimes and other issues are higher in some parts of the United States, but on a population percentage basis, we're way lower. Paki-bashing never quite caught on here.
The only thing we do have is more vocal racists. Just like the evidence that shows school violence has decreased in absolute and percentage terms while dramatically increasing in terms of media coverage, our racists and racist events get far more airtime than they statistically should. Yes, it's bad, yes, our record isn't perfect, but we are by no means a racist place.

[peter-griffin]

good job at proving my point, lets keep going and see how many more you can do!

well good job at proving my point, let's keep going and see how many more you can do!

good job at jumping both sidesof the fence. A few posts ago to hear you tell it, you were the Russian states official records keeper on well, everything.

oh, thanks again for the commendation of my fine work. i truly appreciate it. would you like to provide some quotes on where i was the "russian states official records keeper on well, everything"?

HOW Do you keep one hoping that fence, it's just flat out amazing that you so easily display yourself as having both opinions.

sort of like this

i don't have a negative view of the country in general, i just like antagonizing an overzealous asshole who tells me where i get my information and labels that source as western propoganda.

For someone that claims to be so intellectually superior you sure had a hard time realizing that a topic like racisim is always going to be based on personal feeling. Nor did I ever represent my personal feelings s facts, like you yourself did. Even at the point of being confronted on the fact you still acted like it was viable, for you to attack me on the same basis is well, silly and childish.

let's go to bed, oh baby turn off the lights:

It is to the point that most everyone I know from the UK and Australia are fairly appaled by it.

compared to

i meant to point out that i have heard stories from my family about russia for my entire life. i am not entirely oblivious to the russian experience, and though certainly not versed in it like a russian citizen, i am probably more knowledgeable about russia than makh or anyone else thinks that i am. the majority of my family still lives in russia, but they make periodic visits here every two or three years and i am lambasted with stories for the majority of their 3 to 4 week stay.

yes clearly i am basing all statements purely on my personal opinion whereas yours are backed with hard facts and totally realistic "benchmarks for racism."

sorry, that was supposed to be an or, reguardless it still holds fairy true.

yes i agree no one with half a brain pays attention to anything i say.

Considering the source I'll just write it off immature useless drivel. On that note, I'll simple bow out and allow peter the joy of feeling a hallow victory simply because I don't care to deal with another child.

high horse "i win by default"++ riley you are so awesome on so many levels i'm going to make a shrine to you.

remember what the lesson here is, guys: if you're in an unwinnable arguement making baseless points, you can always just call the other guy childish on the internet.

[Deacon]

[quote="Rileyrat";p="544188"]Every person that I have talked to, from one of these two or a simmular nation, always commented about how racial tension is very high and up front in the US.[/quote]
Wow, really? I guess croc wrestling and boomerangs are items of high concern in Aussiland, too, based on the media coverage we receive from there.

Whereas it tends to be a much smaller issue in thier homelands.

Caucasian 92%, Asian 7%, aboriginal and other 1%

When you're all the same race, racial tension is practically nonexistant, especially when they're too busy with walkabouts and Fosters and whatever other baseless stereotypes we can glean from the media's representation of that country? Wow! About 1.5 million total people in the entire country that aren't caucasian...

[workmad3]

[quote="Rileyrat";p="544188"]I was more or less reffering to the countries we tend to always get compaired to on most any topic. The U.K. and Australia are two of the most common for the US to get roughed against. Every person that I have talked to, from one of these two or a simmular nation, always commented about how racial tension is very high and up front in the US. Whereas it tends to be a much smaller issue in thier homelands.[/quote]

Having had this kind of discussion with other people here in britain, I think the ideas others came up with regarding this are good ones. (I kinda was on the side of ignorance before hand and I apologise profusely for it):

Basically, racial tensions and so on seem to be larger in the US because of the size of the US. Compare the population of britain to the population of the US and there is a huge difference. In a larger population, you have more extremist attitudes, and due to the larger size, they have a much larger area to proliferate in. For example, there arent any amish in england, and barely any mormons, due to there not really being enough space for them. Theres not really any way for a closed community to set up to the same extent as in america. I grew up in the middle of nowhere by most british ideas, being in a small town about 13 miles from the nearest city, and about 4 miles from a fair sized town. Not exactly sure what the idea of the middle of nowhere is in America, but I know in some places you can drive for hundreds of miles and not find any good sized settlements.

On a more mathematical note to it, if you increase the size of a population, you increase the number of anomalies (extreme values) and you have a higher chance of an anomaly appearing further away from the IQR. So, if you say in a sample of 10, you have one anomaly, in a sample of 100 you have 10, in a sample of 56 mill you would have roughly 5 and a half million anomalies. In a sample of 560mill (If USA doesnt have a bigger population than this, I'd be surprised) you would have 56 million extremists/anomalies. So going by that rough idea of about 10% of the population are extremists, then you could take all the extremists of some description and populate all of britain with them. In that group, about 5 and a half million of them are going to be anomalies by even their standards. Taken like that, its a lot more understandable that in a place as huge as the US, you will find a higher range of extremist tendencies than in countries about a tenth of the size. It doesnt make a higher percentage of the population racist, but 10% of our population is 1% of yours, so it puts it in proportion.

Sorry for babbling

[CyberEd]

Deacon, I'd have to agree with Riley on the Oz part.
ozzies seem to have little racial tention, true... ozzies (and kiwis) are the nicest, friendliest people I ever met. (don't know what they eat or smoke but they are friendly to almost anything)

I asked for 5 places because I could only think of three places where racism is relatively low: Australia, New-Zealand and Canada.

here's where I do agree with Deacon, and disagree with Riley is this: EVERY country has racists (even those three, maybe there they have less, but still)

the UK is just as loaded with them (well, if it's not race it's nationality: english, scots, and irish...)plus the british are starting to have troubles with middle eastern people, france has problems with north africans, Germans with turks, turks have problems with kurds and so on and so forth...

almost everywhere people hate those different... the USA is no exception.