It's about that time (new hardware)

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Deacon
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It's about that time (new hardware)

Post by Deacon » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:53 pm

It's been a couple years since my last computer upgrade. I tend to buy high and keep stuff for a good long while unless something new comes around that's affordable and drops right in (i.e. went from old AthlonXP 1800+ (Palomino) to 2800+ (Barton @ 3200+)).

Anyway, with the advent of PCI Express and some of the new advances that have been made in other areas (dual-core, anyone?) I started looking into it, especially as my income doubled a few months back (yay credit for other people's sales!). I've finally got some cash to kick around, and I'll be selling my motorcycle soon (which will just be that much more green stuff I don't know what to do with), so I was looking with a different perspective at high-end systems. I've already got a bunch of stuff I'm happy with, that is all non-on-board peripherals (i.e. monitor, storage, etc), so it's not a full-on system build, just mainly a replacement of the ol' CPU/mobo/RAM/Video. This helps a bit, because I can nudge myself up a little further into the higher end of the spectrum without feeling too much like an idiot, because that's money I don't have to spend on other stuff.

I looked into the Athlon FX-57 at first and then decided that, while I certainly liked that extra edge when it came to gaming, I'd like something that comes really close in gaming but cranks out unreal benchmarks in day-to-day stuff and heavy-duty operations, so I ended up deciding on the Athlon 64 X2 4800+ (appropriately cooled of course). I wanted to mount that on an MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum SLI board. I also decided I wanted more than 1GB. Hooray for memory-hogging MMOs! But I wanted looow latency stuff. I also wanted to buy a video card that, yes, may be $150 more than you should really be spending, but that would last me forever, allow me to tack on a second one in SLI later, and give me some reasonable bragging rights in the mean time :) So I figured what the hell and went with a 7800GTX.

And, after all that, I decided that since I've all all these new SATA ports open and available, I should really go ahead and realize my dream of two 74GB WD Raptors chained together in RAID0.

Fun to play with all that, isn't it? Here's what the cart looks like. Scroll to the bottom for the price.

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Toledo 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Dual Core Processor Model ADA4800CDBOX - Retail *COMBO DEAL WITH:* MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum SLI Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail (1 @ $1,032.00 total)

THERMALRIGHT XP-120 Heatsink - Retail (1 @ $68.99) & VANTEC SF12025L 120mm 2 Ball Case Cooling Fan - Retail (1 @ $11.99)

CORSAIR XMS 1GB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin PC3200/DDR400 with 2-2-2-5 timing (2 @ $183.00)

MSI NX7800GTX-VT2D256E (Lite) Geforce 7800GTX 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card White Box - OEM (1 @ $465.00)

WD Raptor WD740GD 74GB 10,000 RPM Serial ATA150 (2 @ $183.00)

Subtotal: $2,309.98

Yeah, that's right, with overnight shipping, that works out to around $2350 (shave $20 for "Express Saver", but why snivel over $20 and take that much longer to get your shit when you're already out over two grand?). Yeesh. Can I afford it? Yeah. Is it really the responsible thing to do? No. Would it make me happy? Yes. Can I cut a healthy chunk out of that and still come away with a decent upgrade? Yes. Will I do it? I'm not really sure at this point. I think I may wait until I sell my motorcycle and use some of that money for this purpose, I don't know.

On the 74GB Raptor drives versus a new, large-capacity 7200rpm SATA II drive with NCQ, I actually did a little research into it, and they do approach the overall performance of the 36GB Raptor, but they still can't make up for seek times, and the WD740's performance numbers remain out of reach. Additionally, the WD740 does support TCQ (Tagged Command Queuing), which is allegedly supported by the Sil3132 controller that comes on the K8N Neo4 Platinum SLI board that I'd get and is officially supported by the nForce4 SLI chipset on which the board is based, though it's not the buzzword these days as manufacturers sort out the implementation roadmaps and such with SATA II, so it's not advertised as heavily.

See the article on Tom's Hardware entitled Can Command Queuing Turbo Charge SATA? for performance comparisons between the 7200rpm NCQ drives and the 10000rpm TCQ Raptor. The results may surprise you:
Seagate's advertisements for the Barracuda 7200.7 with NCQ purport major performance improvements. First, the hard disk is supposed to work as fast as other drives at 10,000 rpm, such as Western Digital's Raptor. However, the company's ambitious claims are not realized regarding access time, data transfer rates and I/O performance.

Meanwhile, it can be said that Command Queuing offers improvements for the application benchmark Winbench 99 2.0, which simulates access of typical business and high-end applications. In this case, Seagate's hard drive actually is only slightly behind WD360.

In any case, no current SATA hard disk is ready to hold a candle to the WD740. The data rate is too high and the access times are too short. Thanks to TCQ, it is possible for the big Raptor to beat the WD360 based on IOMeter benchmarks as well.
And regardless, I don't want or need the storage, really, as I use my system drive for OS, apps, and games installation, and nothing else. I have drives for storage handled separately. My old 80GB ATA-100 WD SE drive I'm using now is still overkill as far as storage capacity is concerned. So in my case, it seems like the pair of WD740GDs in RAID0 would be the most effective, performance wise, though not the pinnacle of frugality.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Post by KaymeeraUnleashed » Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:11 pm

I have teh envy of j00

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Post by BtEO » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:41 pm

Deacon, You are the king of bastards.

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Post by Teranfirbt » Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:15 am

Personally, I'd go for a Zalman CNPS 7700Cu vs the Thermalright, but that's just me...
Or, if you're gonna put down that much cash, just go for water cooling..
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Post by Deacon » Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:20 am

Why the Zalman?

And water cooling = no.

No reason for it, no need, no benefit, just more work. I probably wouldn't be OCing the thing much (if at all, actually).
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Post by Infin8Cyn » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:55 am

Water cooling is pain. I couldn't ever bring myself to do it.

WD = Not my prefered.
nVidia = see above.


I really only envy the cpu/mobo setup.
gg AMD64 FTW.
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Post by KaymeeraUnleashed » Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:02 pm

I'm not an nVidia fan myself, but I'd kill for the 7800GTX anyday.
That thing can clear a clean 20 more frames than the strongest ATi cards on the market on the highest settings, not to mention SLi. It's a monster...

[quote="Teranfirbt";p="545849"]Personally, I'd go for a Zalman CNPS 7700Cu vs the Thermalright, but that's just me...
Or, if you're gonna put down that much cash, just go for water cooling..[/quote]

I agree, the Zalman cooler is more effective at spreading the heat.

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Post by Infin8Cyn » Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:50 pm

That thing can clear a clean 20 more frames than the strongest ATi cards on the market on the highest settings
You can't quite round it out like that. It's not like downloading a file. You can't throw two vid. cards huge 'graphic' files and see which finishes first. I know it's the top, or one of the top at the moment, but that doesn't lend any saving graces to 'forceware' packages.

As for SLi, I've decided it's worthless. I'm not losing a drive bay AND another $400+ for that.
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Re: It's about that time (new hardware)

Post by Kurosen » Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:21 pm

im holding out for ATI's SLI cards... and they probably are pretty pointless atm IMO as well, unless your just a graphics buff who needs to have everything running on the highest settings and get frames out ass.

I think the Raid'd raptors are a good idea tho. I figured out (read and researched and whatnot) that RAID is really kinda pointless unless your doing the high end video/graphics editing. I think the difference is kinda like the difference in a ATA133 drive and an ATA100 drive (negligable). But i would LOVE to see how the 10krpm drives work out on that, do some tests for us and let us know... ^_^
OMGIFINALLYREMOVEDIT!!

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Post by Deacon » Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:53 pm

SLi is certainly not worthless. It doesn't mean it's worth doing for you if you're on a budget, especially considering that one card probably meets your needs just fine, and two would just be overkill. But it does mean that a year or two down the line you can add a second card (at which time it'll be much less costly) to provide a nice shot in the arm, graphics wise. And most of us don't use all our PCI slots :P

And I'm curious as to why the Zalman other than just, "It's better".
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Post by edge » Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:00 pm

I really havn't looked into SLi a lot...I know what it's for, but not really much about making it work. Does it work with any two cards, one being AGP and the other PCI? If so...I have an extra PCI card laying around I'd like to give it a try with. It's nothing fancy, but for it's age its a hella fast little card. What I've got now kicks ass, but every little bit helps.

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Post by PhoenixGeek » Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:12 pm

From what I have read SLi only uses PCI express slots, you plug 2 compatible cards into 2 PCIx slots and then hook them together useing the SLi bus and a special connector between the cards.

And Deacon, your system makes me with I had the money or the need to upgrade my system.
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Post by Deacon » Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:38 pm

Well, I haven't decided to actually do it yet. We'll see.

edge, SLI stands for Scalable Link Interface and is a technology invented (or at least first implemented) by 3Dfx, back in the Voodoo days, I think. I'm a little rusty on the history. Anyway, the piont is that it's just a technology, the implementation of which may differ between manufacturers. Currently nVidia is the only company to have a production SLI solution out there, and it involves a little piece of hardware (a PCB with two connectors) bridging a connection between two cards, and I think it's only available on the PCI Express cards on only in motherboards that support it (via the nForce4 SLI chipset). It's used to accelerate the rendering of real-time 3D graphics, either by [EDIT: cut out close-but-not-quite description]. Actually, wait, let me have Wikipedia do the talking:
The software, or the drivers in this case, distribute the workload in one of two ways. The first method, known as Split Frame Rendering (SFR), analyzes the rendered image in order to split the workload 50/50 between the two GPUs. Both GPUs work on the same frame simultaneously, each performing roughly half of the calculations required to render the frame. The second method is named Alternate Frame Rendering (AFR), in which one GPU processes the current frame, while the next frame is processed by the second card.
With the nVidia SLI, the cards should be identical, or at least have the same chipset on them. With ATi's upcoming X-Fire (or whatever it's called), I think they're going to have it to where you don't have to have identical cards, but they'll be limited to the lesser featureset and capabilities of the two. In other words, if one has 16 pipelines and one has 8, the 16 card will be limited to 8 when paired together. Same with RAM (if one has 256MB and one has 128MB, only 128MB of the 256MB card will be used) and shaders and such.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Post by Infin8Cyn » Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:42 pm

ATi's version of SLi is called "Crossfire" and has been under scrutiny recently for the speed at which it operated being slow...

The only cards that support it AFAIK are indeed PCI-E.

Either way, I can't see it as a cost effective solution to anything unless you're hoping to take the top place in 3dMark05 or the like. It just doesn't make sense to me to drop THAT much money, for that little of a gain. Keep in mind that much like Dual-CPU Rigs, not everything can make use of SLi either.

/pseudo-wannabe-rant
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Post by KaymeeraUnleashed » Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:23 pm

[quote="Deacon";p="546048"]And I'm curious as to why the Zalman other than just, "It's better".[/quote]

How do you describe why a heatsink is better than the other? It just is, the lower a temp. it keeps your cpu, the better it is...
Also Zalman products are known to be especially quiet. Considering the next two posts I thought I should add this...
Last edited by KaymeeraUnleashed on Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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