Fuggle, it's been a long time since I've wanted to strike someone so badly.so they owe more back to it for, if not helping, then LETTING them get so wealthy.
Read Atlas Shrugged, then feel very bad about yourself.
Flat Tax
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1) Remain civil. Respect others' rights to their viewpoints, even if you believe them to be completely wrong.
2) Sourcing your information is highly recommended. Plagiarism will get you banned.
3) Please create a new thread for a new topic, even if you think it might not get a lot of responses. Do not create mega-threads.
4) If you think the subject of a thread is not important enough to merit a post, simply avoid posting in it. If enough people agree, it will fall off the page soon enough.
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StruckingFuggle
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... *snorts*
... *and then mentally shudders from contacting the ideas of Ayn Rand and goes the "get it off! get it off! shuffle"*
(by the way, Deacon, an answer is forthcoming)
... *and then mentally shudders from contacting the ideas of Ayn Rand and goes the "get it off! get it off! shuffle"*
(by the way, Deacon, an answer is forthcoming)
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
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StruckingFuggle
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Well, factually ... they wouldn't be. They *do* have their money by the grace of the government legislating a system of a more open market than, say, socialistic... I'm not saying that by dint of that that the government is owed money from the rich people - but if you're going to bring it up I will mention that it IS a factual truth.They wouldn't be so rich if hadn't not obstructed their way!
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
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Deacon
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Fuggle, that's ridiculous. That's patently absurd. You have as much opportunity as anyone else to make money. You don't owe me money because I happen to be part of the same environment that provides that opportunity. You produce something that I'm willing to pay for, you don't owe me money because I pay you for it. It's just...I don't get it. And I also don't understand why you draw such a distinct line between The People and The Government. The Government is not some monolithic entity of absolute power to give a thumbs up or thumbs down to the entrepreneurial gladiators who vie for its approval. We The People have decided that quenching the entrepreneurial spirit does not benefit us as a whole and that punishing innovation and success, taking a disproportionately high amount of money from those who have done well for themselves is not the smartest way to run a country. Unfortunately, however, enough small-minded and ignorant people have taken the stance that they are entitled to Other People's Money simply by existing that we've set up a rat's nest of income tax legislation that ends up with the middle class losing the highest percentage of their income. A flat tax eliminates that altogether. Only the poor pay less. Everyone else pays the same percentage of their income.
I'm still interested as to what twisted mindset can produce the idea that anyone who makes more than yourself (or whatever other arbitrary line you draw) owes you a disproportionately higher amount of money than everyone else.
I'm still interested as to what twisted mindset can produce the idea that anyone who makes more than yourself (or whatever other arbitrary line you draw) owes you a disproportionately higher amount of money than everyone else.
Last edited by Deacon on Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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StruckingFuggle
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Well, again, I haven't been saying you owe ME, personally, money. You owe some back to the government and the society that contributed to your success, because you didn't generate your wealth in a vacuum.
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
Re: Flat Tax
That's right, it's not a vacuum, but by generating wealth, you already *are* helping society in the best way possible: by making more wealth overall. If you make money, it means you're producing something useful, and thus helping out the economy as a whole, which in turn *will* help society. Forced redestribution of wealth never has nor ever will work; you remove incentive and motivation at all levels of society. The bottom line is that without ingenius businessmen, inventors, investors, etc (all the people that create wealth), there would be no society, so how can they owe what they in part have created?
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?
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StruckingFuggle
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... right. Because, for example, if $1,000,000 is a lot of incentive, then $500,000 is no incentive at all, eh?Forced redestribution of wealth never has nor ever will work; you remove incentive and motivation at all levels of society.
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
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Deacon
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[quote="StruckingFuggle";p="553234"]the society that contributed to your success[/quote]
...by deciding that what you're selling is worth buying! These people were not given gifts, trust funds set up by The Goverment who's asking for a little return. We're talking about charging them a disproportionately high amount of money simply because they've produced successfully. They don't owe "society" a disproportionately high amount of money for it. It's certainly reasonable that they be expected to pay the same percentage of their income that everyone else pays, which will be a much larger amount of money than other individuals pay. The arrogance inherent in your demands, suggesting that you "contributed" to their success by "letting" them be successful is just...shocking. It's as though you believe that you were generous to them in paying them more for what they produce than they really "deserve" or that you've provided some sort of equivalent to venture capital for them and therefore are owed a higher percentage of ROI on their success than you do from others.
...by deciding that what you're selling is worth buying! These people were not given gifts, trust funds set up by The Goverment who's asking for a little return. We're talking about charging them a disproportionately high amount of money simply because they've produced successfully. They don't owe "society" a disproportionately high amount of money for it. It's certainly reasonable that they be expected to pay the same percentage of their income that everyone else pays, which will be a much larger amount of money than other individuals pay. The arrogance inherent in your demands, suggesting that you "contributed" to their success by "letting" them be successful is just...shocking. It's as though you believe that you were generous to them in paying them more for what they produce than they really "deserve" or that you've provided some sort of equivalent to venture capital for them and therefore are owed a higher percentage of ROI on their success than you do from others.
That's not an explanation...because you didn't generate your wealth in a vacuum.
Last edited by Deacon on Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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StruckingFuggle
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I disagree that that's all there is to that - but I'm still trying to figure out a decent explanation of how, instead of just a list.Deacon wrote:...by deciding that what you're selling is worth buying!
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
[quote="desertfox";p="553236"]Forced redestribution of wealth never has nor ever will work; you remove incentive and motivation at all levels of society.[/quote]
It works when this thing is done by people who are not extremist. Done with moderation, redistribution can be beneficial for those in the need.
It works when this thing is done by people who are not extremist. Done with moderation, redistribution can be beneficial for those in the need.
[quote="StruckingFuggle";p="553244"]
It's a lot less incentive if I have to work as hard to get the 500k as I would have to work to get the 1000k because I need to give that extra 500k away. Consider the following parable:
You're in a class (college, high school, whatever). You go into the first exam and get an A. But, some other people in the class did poorly, so they take away some from your score and other people's scores, and suddenly you have a B-. On the next exam, you again get an A, but the people at the bottom do even worse (cause hey, they're just going to get a handout from the teacher if they do bad, so why bother studying?). So now you have a C. How much incentive is there for you to do 'A' work on the last exam? As much as if you actually got to keep your A?
... right. Because, for example, if $1,000,000 is a lot of incentive, then $500,000 is no incentive at all, eh?[/quote]Forced redestribution of wealth never has nor ever will work; you remove incentive and motivation at all levels of society.
It's a lot less incentive if I have to work as hard to get the 500k as I would have to work to get the 1000k because I need to give that extra 500k away. Consider the following parable:
You're in a class (college, high school, whatever). You go into the first exam and get an A. But, some other people in the class did poorly, so they take away some from your score and other people's scores, and suddenly you have a B-. On the next exam, you again get an A, but the people at the bottom do even worse (cause hey, they're just going to get a handout from the teacher if they do bad, so why bother studying?). So now you have a C. How much incentive is there for you to do 'A' work on the last exam? As much as if you actually got to keep your A?
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?
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StruckingFuggle
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Well, first, that counterexample doesn't really work.
Still - think of it like this - think of the "A quality work" as "C quality work" ... and what was originally "C Quality Work" as "Hey, This Level Of Work Will Make Me Fail The Class, So I Am Incentivized To Do The Work Necessary To Pass The Class, If Passing It Is Worth It To Me."
Or, in another context, in the 1 million vs. 1/2 Million example - you never really get the other five hundred thousand, so why even think of the five hundred thousand? Think of it as working for a half million dollars, is it worth that or not? ... even if it SAYS 1,000,000 ... y'know?
Still - think of it like this - think of the "A quality work" as "C quality work" ... and what was originally "C Quality Work" as "Hey, This Level Of Work Will Make Me Fail The Class, So I Am Incentivized To Do The Work Necessary To Pass The Class, If Passing It Is Worth It To Me."
Or, in another context, in the 1 million vs. 1/2 Million example - you never really get the other five hundred thousand, so why even think of the five hundred thousand? Think of it as working for a half million dollars, is it worth that or not? ... even if it SAYS 1,000,000 ... y'know?
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
[quote="StruckingFuggle";p="553252"]
Still - think of it like this - think of the "A quality work" as "C quality work" ... and what was originally "C Quality Work" as "Hey, This Level Of Work Will Make Me Fail The Class, So I Am Incentivized To Do The Work Necessary To Pass The Class, If Passing It Is Worth It To Me."
Or, in another context, in the 1 million vs. 1/2 Million example - you never really get the other five hundred thousand, so why even think of the five hundred thousand? Think of it as working for a half million dollars, is it worth that or not? ... even if it SAYS 1,000,000 ... y'know?[/quote]
What I'm trying to convey is that this sort of forced redistribution gradually drives wealth down over a period of time because you keep having to take more and more from the top and give it to those at the bottom. You basically end up with a finite commodity (money) running up against an infinite need. It's much easier to "need" something than to produce something, so in a market that distributes wealth based on need, need will tend to grow. In the class example, you start off earning 'B's, but eventually you end up getting 'C's on the same amount of work (same amount of production).
Still - think of it like this - think of the "A quality work" as "C quality work" ... and what was originally "C Quality Work" as "Hey, This Level Of Work Will Make Me Fail The Class, So I Am Incentivized To Do The Work Necessary To Pass The Class, If Passing It Is Worth It To Me."
Or, in another context, in the 1 million vs. 1/2 Million example - you never really get the other five hundred thousand, so why even think of the five hundred thousand? Think of it as working for a half million dollars, is it worth that or not? ... even if it SAYS 1,000,000 ... y'know?[/quote]
What I'm trying to convey is that this sort of forced redistribution gradually drives wealth down over a period of time because you keep having to take more and more from the top and give it to those at the bottom. You basically end up with a finite commodity (money) running up against an infinite need. It's much easier to "need" something than to produce something, so in a market that distributes wealth based on need, need will tend to grow. In the class example, you start off earning 'B's, but eventually you end up getting 'C's on the same amount of work (same amount of production).
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?
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StruckingFuggle
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You know, I thought we were discussing taxes in general, not welfare in specific.What I'm trying to convey is that this sort of forced redistribution gradually drives wealth down over a period of time because you keep having to take more and more from the top and give it to those at the bottom.
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
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