a discussion about "Who is a jew"

[CyberEd]

a spin off from the thread What the Hell is Up with Racism ??
this question is something you learn at school in Israel as part of your civics class...

first let me get this out of the way:
judaism is NOT a race.
true, since jews have marries (mostly) jews for the past few centauries many jewish people share the same genes.

however, anyone could become a jew, since first and foremost a judaism's religion. you don't have to share any of the genes, all it takes to become a jew is some knowledge of the tora, a few ceremonies and a foreskin.

caucasian is a race, a black man cannot become a caucasian. never.
a muslim can become a jew. a black man can become a jew... since as I said he'd just have to convert.

according to the halacha (jewish tradition) a jew is anyone born to a jewish mother, OR has converted to one.

around the time of WWI jews were unter heavy anti-semitic persecutions. the jews began to realise that wherever they went there were strangers since they kept to their own different culture. even after many jews became secular and intermingled with the peoples of the countries they inhabited they were held different and were under serious threats at times.

around that time (seek info about Dreyfus trial) the zionist movement arose and changed the definition of "jewish"
no longer was a "jew" a man who followed the jewish religion, he was a part of the "jewish people".

so now judaism is a nationality and a religion.

never a race

[adciv]

Possibilities: Race, Nationality, Religion, Ethnic group.

If race is defined as any one group with a fairly distinct genetic makeup, we could debate that one definition of judaism is a race, such as with Ashkenazi Jews. This would also mean the Amish are a race as well. We probably need to decide upon the definition of "Race" vs. Ethnic group.

Religion, yeah easy one to answere yes to.

Nationality, well, not really since you do not have to follow the jewish religion to be an Israeli. I personally would consider that one would either have to be brought up in the jewish religion or born from jewish parents or have converted to judaism in order to be considered jewish. I know of several people who do not follow the rules of judaism but still consider themselves jewish. (Kind of like once/twice a year Catholics.)

Ethnic group, If not a race then definitely this.

If we really want to get technical as to what it is to be considered jewish we can reference the appropriate Torah pasageways.

[Deacon]

There may be a bit of a language barrier here. "Judaism" is referring to "the monotheistic religion of the Jews, tracing its origins to Abraham and having its spiritual and ethical principles embodied chiefly in the Hebrew Scriptures and the Talmud."

Most people consider a Jew to be a person of Hebrew ancestry. Hebrew is defined as "a member or descendant of a Semitic people claiming descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; an Israelite; a Jew." Often this also means that the person in question also observes Yom Kippur, Hanukkah, and other Jewish holidays, attends services at a synagogue, etc, in other words is also a follower of Judaism. While, yes, anyone can convert to Judaism, most people would not normally visually recognize a black man as a Jew because he does not share the same genealogical heritage or conventional names as the Hebrews. In other words, he won't be named "Abe Goldstein" and he won't look like a Jew, even though he has converted to Judaism. Of course, such conversions are somewhat rare in my experience, so it's more academic than anything, really.

So, yeah, recognizing someone as a Jew is usually referencing their genealogical heritage as a Hebrew and is often accompanied by their involvement in Judaism.

As far as "nationality" is concerned, I think there would probably be quite a few Israeli Arabs who'd be quite annoyed with you calling them Jews because of their Israeli citizenship.

[CyberEd]

Deacon, the jews never looked for direct bloodline relation to Jacob, there are many jews who would not "look like" what you expect...
for example: the large ethiopian jewish comunity. half of it made aliya (came to israel) some remain in ethiopia. their names are not "Abe Goldstein" but more in the direction of "Abraham Daraje" or "Shlomo Adis". (linky)
these people are as jewish as I am.
also fine examples are the Yemenite jews, or indians (from kuchin)
the only way to tell if a person is a jew is by:
a. his penis
b. if he wears one - a kipa, or a yarmulka...

by nationality I meant "being part of the jewish people".
there's a hebrew word "leom" which means 'nation, people'... I'm having translation problems here... anyone here understand what I'm trying to say ?

adciv,

Ashkenazim, are not a race. ethnic group, perhaps. they are no more a race as "french" or "german" is...

I'd agree that judaism is either a Nationality, Religion or Ethnic group. in no way is it a race. one ashkenazi may share the genetic makeup an irishman would share with another. that does not make 'irish' any closer to a race...

[Seraphim]

CyberEd, Some Jewish people would claim the exact opposite of what you're saying. It goes both ways.

The reasons it's at least a sub race: it's a group that has quite a few characteristics specific to themselves. In some places there are still Jewish match makers. In those areas matchmakers always consult a genetics foundation specifically for looking at Jewish DNA and look for a few genetic diseases specific to Jewish people. If both people are carriers the matchmaker will not recommend a match.

People often don't understand races. They just want 5 giant races: white, black, Asian, native American, and Hispanic. Maybe they'll throw in Inuit and something else just to be safe, like middle eastern. The lines are terribly drawn, and are based souly on the colour of the persons skin. And race lines can't be drawn by that alone. Aborigines (black people native to Australia and the surrounding areas) are more closely related to Asians, and Polynesians than they are to black people. The white race is actually a dozen or so races. The more famous ones come to mind: Aryan, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and Celts. A lot of people consider Jewish people white, but white is a terrible term that should not be confused with race. People of Jewish ancestry are more closely related to other people native to the mid east than they are to the Irish.

I don't have a link to every race, their origins, family tree, and what makes them their own race on me, but I'll give it a look.

As for why I think of it as it's own race instead of a sub race: It has it's own sub-races. hell, I'm part svardik(sp). Most of my Jewish friends can tell it just by looking at me.

Posted Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:18 pm:

true, since jews have marries (mostly) jews for the past few centauries many jewish people share the same genes.

Which would make it a race, or subrace.

Bassically you can join the Jewish religion, regardless or race, but that doesn't change the fact that the majority of the people in the religion share a common ancestry which borders on, if not is a race. So for lack of a better term we call the race of people the Jewish race. If you have a word you would rather we use to refer to said race, because you don't want it confused with the non-racial religion, by all means tell us.

that does not make 'irish' any closer to a race...

Irish is it's own race. It's actually a few races mixed into one. Kind of like the English are Anglo-Saxon (a mixture of Angles, Saxons, and Jutes.) I forget what races they mainly are, since Ireland was constantly invaded with the natives being replaced. Then the race that invaded gets invaded, and gets displaced. I'm pretty sure Celts were one of the last ones to successfully invade. I know the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes tried but I thought they failed.

[Dr. Tower]

On a somewhat absurd note, I had a black teacher in high school who was gay and who's mother was Jewish, making him a gay Jewish black dude.

I'm sure the KKK loved him.

[Deacon]

[quote="CyberEd";p="555377"]Deacon, the jews never looked for direct bloodline relation to Jacob, there are many jews who would not "look like" what you expect...
for example: the large ethiopian jewish comunity. half of it made aliya (came to israel) some remain in ethiopia. their names are not "Abe Goldstein" but more in the direction of "Abraham Daraje" or "Shlomo Adis". (linky)
these people are as jewish as I am.[/quote]
No, because they're not Hebrews. They may be followers of Judaism, which allows for them to refer to their Jewish faith, but no, it's hard to say that "they're as Jewish as I am" if you're a Hebrew.

the only way to tell if a person is a jew is by:
a. his penis
b. if he wears one - a kipa, or a yarmulka...

A penis is not really much of an outward display of one's religion, and the vast majority of children (born in the US at least) are circumcised regardless of their parents' religious affiliation(s). There are certainly other people who I would say are Jewish regardless of whether they follow Judaism or to what extent they do so, because they're of Hebrew ancestry. And not all of them wear yarmulkas, either. In fact, many, many Jews do not wear any such thing unless they've been dragged to the synagogue for some reason. And what about this guy? I'd guess that he's Jewish:



Steven Spielberg? Jewish.

I'd agree that judaism is either a Nationality, Religion or Ethnic group. in no way is it a race.

Meh. Symantics. Most people would consider discrimination against highly distinct ethnic groups to be racist, even down to things like "pollock" jokes or whatever.

[jimkatai]

I'm not clear on current Judaism, but in the original texts including the Torah, the Jews had a seperate name for followers of judaism that were not of the bloodline, and these people were not considered Jews at all. I can't remember the name that they had for them, but I know they were seperated from the rest of the Jews, although I think a Jew was allowed to marry a non-jewish believer.

[CyberEd]

[quote="Seraphim";p="555397"]The reasons it's at least a sub race: it's a group that has quite a few characteristics specific to themselves. In some places there are still Jewish match makers. In those areas matchmakers always consult a genetics foundation specifically for looking at Jewish DNA and look for a few genetic diseases specific to Jewish people. If both people are carriers the matchmaker will not recommend a match. [/quote]

where did you come up with that ? it sounds like the matchmakers are some sort of Bene Gesserits...
the thing is you're PARTLY right and mostly wrong.
in SOME places there are still matchmakers, those places might be in touch with other places with matchmakers. in some places there are no matchmakers... just as it would be in any type of very religios conservative environment, not any different than the christians. I have no idea if they look into diseases, but I do know they don't look into your DNA, they check your family name at most...

also jews have always had new people (I can't tell amounts) joining in wherever they were. that is the reason a middle eastern jew would not look like a european jew. one would look european while the other would seem arab. and so I could understand if you'd lug a couple jews in a specific race, but I think you'd have trouble defining all jews as a race. in the same way you'd find it hard to define americans as a race, since the US was open the the worlds gene pool...
no the jews did not accept people as fast as the US did, but in 5000 years of existance it managed to mingle with the whole world.

now that I think about it, only ONE gene (that I know of) was found to be shared by many jews (and some arabs), I don't know if thats proof if the jewish being a race or not...

and one last question, in your definition of a race, can one join a race not his own ?


[quote="Deacon";p="555510"]No, because they're not Hebrews. They may be followers of Judaism, which allows for them to refer to their Jewish faith, but no, it's hard to say that "they're as Jewish as I am" if you're a Hebrew.[/quote]
a. these people might be more hebrew than I am, there's half a tribe that vanished in history, some say they are direct descendants. and I REALLY don't know if I'm hebrew...
b. being hebrew has nothing to do with being jewish. as I said being jewish is NOT about direct bloodline to jacob, it's about his heritage, the torah, tradition and culture

[Deacon]

[quote="CyberEd";p="555667"]being hebrew has nothing to do with being jewish. as I said being jewish is NOT about direct bloodline to jacob, it's about his heritage, the torah, tradition and culture[/quote]
Nope.

Jew·ish, adj., "Of or relating to the Jews or their culture or religion."

Note how it refers to "the Jews or their culture or religion" and not "of or relating to the Jewish religion. For additonal reference:

Jew, n.

1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.

So, maybe there's a language issue going on here, where you're translating the word "Jew" or "Jewish" to be a word you use in Hebrew that refers strictly to followers of Judaism.

[CyberEd]

1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.

it's right there

the jews might see themselves as descended from the ancient hebrews, but fact is that cannot be physically proved. ask an orthodox and he'll tell you he IS descendant of jacob. though a secular such as myself would say that is very unlikely, and utterly irrelevant to whether a man is a jew.

in fact many times it can be proved that jews are indeed NOT direct descendants. it is believed that most of the european jews are in fact descendants of the khazars rather than the hebrews. but that does not make them less jewish.

[Deacon]

[quote="Deacon";p="555694"] 2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.[/quote]
It's also right there, Ed. Did you miss the 2nd and 3rd definition? As we've pointed out to you, something being "Jewish" is more than (or at least not limited to) the religion of Judaism.

[CyberEd]

it's not limited to 2 & 3 either. so basically, the ethiopians (being hebrew or not) are still jews, like me. and, if judaism be a race, I am part of their race.

[Seraphim]

CyberEd, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Familial_dysautonomia

"FD is seen almost exclusively in Ashkenazi Jews and is inherited in an autosomal recessive fashion."

"Genetic counseling and genetic testing is recommended for families who may be carriers of familial dysautonomia."

I believe the phrase: "eat it." is in order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi

I found the correct spelling for the other subrace I mentioned: Sephardi.

Ashkenazi are Easern European Jews. Sephardi are the dark skinned, middle eastern-esque jews. I'm between 40 and 80% Jewish. (Going only as far back as great grand parents I'm exactly 50%, but I have no idea whether my Jewish ancestors married goy's, and vice versa) and I'm a mixture of both. I'm very light skinned for a Sephardi individual, but for someone of Eurpoean decent... well I can go a whole year with almost no sun, and I'll still look like I got a very good tan. I also have natural peyas and everything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews

Wikipedia seems to disagree with you quite a bit CyberEd.
Not to mention leading geneticists who's job it is to actually draw racial lines into 100's of degrees relating to their actual genetics and family tree, as opposed to... 7 or 8... based on skin colour.

and one last question, in your definition of a race, can one join a race not his own ?

Semantics. You can become a Jew. But you can never become a Ashkenazi, Sephardi, or Mizrahi Jew. Those are races, or subraces depening on who you ask. They're what people refer to when people talk about a jewish race(s)


[18:12] Me: Thanks for helping me with this.
[18:12] Me: I appreciate it.
[18:13] Janet: i fully expect you to say "and thanks to my lovely jewish girlfriend for helping me out with this"

[Deacon]

And to add some more to the mix: Hasidic Jews are called that not because of their genealogical heritage but rather due to their specific religious affiliation