Six Reasons (The Christian) God Exists

[NorthernComfort]

My simple question has still not been answered. Jew is not an acceptable race. What... race... was... Jesus?

Deacon, I'm asking you, by the way.

[Luncelot]

Arabian, Middle Eastern, Ottoman (as in Ottoman empire), Jordanian (person from Jordan) and where all these do fit for political reasons. (ie: teritorial boundies and such.)

I believe the proper response to the question, what race was Jesus, is Hebrew.

Biblically, the term Hebrew refers to all the Children of Eber, and in particular the descendants listed in the Hebrew Bible of the patriarch Jacob, who was later renamed Israel, literally meaning "to struggle with God". Hebrews are also referred to as the Children of Israel (B'nai Yisroel) for this reason.

[Nitz Walsh]

Jew is an acceptable ethnicity. There is no Jewish race. Jesus, according to the bible and the lineage provided that traces Jesus' ancestory, he would have been predominantly an Arab.

Edit: Hebrew is an ethnicity/langage group, not a race.

[Sophira]

Jew is a race.

Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים, Yehudim; Yiddish: ייִדן, Yidn) are followers of Judaism or, more generally, members of the Jewish people (also known as the Jewish nation, or the Children of Israel), an ethno-religious group descended from the ancient Israelites and from converts who joined their religion.

And more

Judaism shares some of the characteristics of a nation, an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture, making the definition of who is a Jew vary slightly depending on whether a religious or national approach to identity is used. For discussions of the religious views on who is a Jew and how these views differ from each other, please see Who is a Jew?. Generally, in modern secular usage, Jews include three groups: people who practice Judaism and have a Jewish ethnic background (sometimes including those who do not have strictly matrilineal descent), people without Jewish parents who have converted to Judaism; and those Jews who, while not practicing Judaism as a religion, still identify themselves as Jewish by virtue of their family's Jewish descent and their own cultural and historical identification with the Jewish people.

Don't any of you read? What is the deal, anyway? I wasn't even aware until it came up in this thread that there was doubt that "Jew" was its own ethnic group.



Posted Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:06 pm:

And Nitz, the difference between "race" and "ethnic group" is fairly minimal here. Let's not split hairs with ridiculous semantics.

[jimkatai]

OK, first thing is first. That link you gave Deacon. It refers to passages in Luke that give Jesus' geneology, specifically through Joseph. The verse would be, in case you are wondering,

Luke 3
23 And Jesus himself, when he began to teach, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as o teach, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,

This was taken from the link you provided which happened to be just a lazy search on google for the geneology of mary, and you failed to even inspect the results.

Also, Sophira, there is a difference. Is a Polish Jew the same race as a Middle-Eastern Jew? No, but they do have geneological ties, making them an ethnic group.

EDIT: Damn, I just saw the genes part of the racial definition. I recede my point.

This is the definition of an ethnic group, as defined by wikipedia

An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith, 1986). Ethnic groups are also usually united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, or religious practices. In this sense, an ethnic group is also a cultural community.

And this one is the definition of race, as provided by wikipedia


The term race distinguishes one population of an animal species (including human) from another of the same subspecies. Many regard race as a social construct. The most widely used human racial categories are based on visible traits (especially skin color, facial features and hair texture), genes, and self-identification. Conceptions of race, as well as specific racial groupings, vary by culture and over time and are often controversial, for scientific reasons as well as their impact on social identity and identity politics.


The part that says (especially skin color, facial features and hair texture) is the kicker. A Polish Jew is white. A Middle-Eastern Jew is not. The Black Jews that now reside in places like Ethiopia and such are black. I realise that even the supreme court thinks that Jews are a race but this all has to do with politicos. I was trying to get Deacon to actually explain what a race was and how that fit in with his justification of Jews being a race.

EDIT: Damn, I just saw the part on genes. I recede my point. Notice there is a difference between ethnic group and race, though. A rather large difference. Ethnic group depends on what that group defines themselves as. Race depends on what everyone else thinks they are.

[Deacon]

jimkatai, you never explained where you got the idea that I claimed the Jews were a race. And your idea of Polish Jews and Russian Jews and whatever else are NOT from 2,000 years ago in northern Israel. Why are you failing so thoroughly to grasp that?

[Sophira]

For the sake of clarity (and to avoid semantic sillies), I am not being scientific about the term "race." Why would I be? Here you go, straight from an ordinary dictionary:

–noun
1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.

jimkatai, seriously, did you read what I quoted about what constitutes a Jew?

It really doesn't seem that you have.

What you are doing here is taking a complicated term ("Jew") and trying to adjust its meaning to suit your own argument. It's clear from everything I've read that race/ethnicity (seriously, virtually interchangable in this discussion, people) is a major aspect of being Jewish. When it is said that Jesus was a Jew, it is meant that he had a Jewish lineage and was therefore of the Jewish race.

He was not a Polish Jew. Polish Jews do not have any bearing on this discussion and didn't exist for another millenium or so. Nice red herring.

Posted Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:04 pm:

D'oh. Left my window open too long. I didn't mean to repeat what's been said.

[Nukinblackmage]

So, Sophira, using the definition you just posted...is American a race?

[Sophira]

I dunno, Nukin, are Americans related by a common descent or heredity?

It's also pretty stupid to assume that one word means the exact same thing all the time no matter what context it's being used in.

Let's please stick to the context. Eh?

[jimkatai]

Goddamnit!!!!!!! I just fucking said that I saw in my own definition that race depends on genes and receded my point. Shut the fuck up. Also, if Jews are not considered a race now than they should not be considered a race than. It is as simple as that. Regardless, this is all pointless because I already said that the definition I provided disproved my point by saying race involved genes. Although, also recognise that according to this definition and the definition you give me, there is a Bradley race and an Owens race and a whatever last name you have race, if it wasn't for the fact that a race is ONLY really a race when everyone else decides it is

[Sophira]

Also, if Jews are not considered a race now than they should not be considered a race than. It is as simple as that.

...

Wow. Just wow.

[jimkatai]

Did you not read the post? I said right after that that the point is moot. Jesus-fucking-christ, you guys just like arguing with people, don't you?

[Deacon]

[quote="Deacon";p="686221"]jimkatai, you never explained where you got the idea that I claimed the Jews were a race.[/quote]

[jimkatai]

We were saying that there is a SLIGHT possibility, although it is a rather unbelievable possibility that Jesus could have been black and you said Jesus was a Jew and therefore not black. You did later explain that you came to your conclusion, not because all Jews are the same color but that Joseph has the geneology to prove that he would be Arabian. We then said that Joseph was not, in fact, the father of Jesus, making his race not relative to Jesus' race. I can't find an example of you saying that Jews are a race, in and of themselves, though so I apologise. It is, apparently, a race, though, just so I'm clear, because I had actually proven my own point wrong earlier in the thread.

[Nukinblackmage]

So, wait. Joseph is an Arab. And then, magically, Jesus is a Jew?