Poor kitty-cat

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Deacon
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Post by Deacon » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:18 am

[quote="Lizzegirle";p="682784"]In this entire post, I didn't see anything saying that YOU killed the animal with your own hands.[/quote]
I didn't realize that was a point of any importance. Yes, I have had to euthanize my own pets, including one where due to my negligence and disobedience as a younger child (~6 years) I injured a cherished hamster (it was dropped when it wasn't even supposed to be out of its cage at the time) beyond recovery and had to help my dad put it out of its misery with a garden hoe. I also was there holding my dog Sheba, the black lab I mentioned earlier, when she was injected, though it was the vet who technically pushed the plunger in on the syringe. Helped get her back end situated in a plastic bag and watched as her pleading eyes grew dull and her head sank to the table between her paws and listened as the urine was released into the bag. You think it was easy or something? Or do you presume that because I take a pragmatic approach, placing the value of people over strays and abandoned pets, that I have no practical experience in the matter and am simply presiding in sneering judgement because I've never had to actually be involved in it, in turn judging me based on those presumptions?

I don't know how things work in Tahoe or Sacramento or San Francisco or whatever, but one thing about growing up in Texas and among the impoverished streets of Latin America (which make the areas in the US with the highest populations of strays look entirely bereft of life) is that you learn the value of an animal is less than the value of your fellow human being. Whether that animal is livestock, a stray born and bred on the streets, or a family pet abandoned for reasons unknown, there's unpleasant business to see to, and we don't get to shirk that responsibility just because it's unpleasant.
I raised animals to be out in the wild and probably eaten.
I do not understand this. There was a shortage of mice in your area, thus creating a situation where all the stray cats were starving? Mice generally multiply and thrive without direct human help. In fact, they are generally regarded as vermin the world over due to their prodigious numbers, a tendency to consume and/or destroy food and other items of value, and carrying parasites and disease. Why you would take steps to very unnecessarily further shore up their numbers is beyond me. I'm surprised you managed to keep this a secret from your neighbors, who I think would be less than pleased to find you spreading vermin in their neighborhood. In fact, all you have to do is change the animal to a similar one that you personally find less cute, and the ridiculousness of it all should be apparent even to you. Let's say cockroaches. Your neighbor has a thing for cockroaches and breeds clutches of them to release into the hallway or whatever. You think you'd rush to his door with a basket of fresh-baked cookies to thank him for his noble work? Scorpions? After all, I'm willing to bet less food is ruined and fewer people are injured or fall ill (or, yeah, even die) from scorpions than from vermin like mice.
The fact of the matter was, that you seemed more concerned with your tax dollars being wasted on keeping another life in this world.
When those tax dollars could instead be spent keeping a deserving human life in this world, yeah, I'm concerned. Sentimentality and the warm fuzzies of releasing animals to be eaten or keeping unwanted animals caged until they die, these ideas are not in and of themselves worthy of glorification, much less of taking tax money (and donations!) from programs that can help people. And yeah, by the way, one other thing about being here in Texas right now is that the leading 3rd party candidate (well, the Democrat doesn't stand much of a chance, so it's really more like simply the first runner-up) has made the installation of taxpayer funded no-kill shelters part of his campaign platform. And it's been quite the hot topic in city politics lately on slow news days, which bleeding heart reporters (susupiciously all female, for some reason) present with bottom lip protruding in a pronounced pout, saying, "Isn't it sad how these animals are dying?" Yeah, it is sad. But City Council then moving to put a temporary stop to all euthanizations while figuring out how to extract more tax money to pay for even more overflowing shelters isn't the answer. Yeah, you're real clever coming up with lines like, "you seemed more concerned with your tax dollars being wasted on keeping another life in this world," and, "Go make your own rant about kittens taking your money." But has it occurred to you to actually consider that you're saying such things are indeed more deserving than people? Yes, even innocent children? Awww, but kittens are so much cuter than a homeless child, right? Perhaps we simply should've been more understanding of Old Yeller and found a way to peacefully coexist with rabid animals. If only Congress would pass a resolution to redirect a few measly billions of dollars we could establish the grand Utopia where irresponsible pet owners go unpunished while the abandoned pets and their offspring are caged until they die.

Death is, actually, a part of life, and it is not a sin or an evil thing when a superfluous stray is put down. It is instead our responsibility to prevent a long, needless incarceration for these animals while keeping our neighborhoods safe and disease free, and doing so in a fiscally responsible manner.
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Post by Lizzegirle » Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:56 pm

I believe that human life is also more important than animal life, but at the same time, I think everything should be given the chance to live. That's not saying that I think think people should let their animals keep reproducing. I am still completely for neutering of all pets so that there isn't think kind of argument to begun with. But if an animal is found, the animal should be given the chance to live.

The mice, for example, were found and raised to adulthood so that they could be released back in the wild, far away from humans and their houses. This was so the mice could do their part in the circle of life. If someone is raising cockroaches down the hall to release into the wild, far away from human life, then that's totally cool with me. I'll be there with some warm muffins in no time.

As far as the candidate who is being retarded, I think he is just trying to buy votes. Personally, I think that such a little amount of money goes to these shelters anyways, that it wouldn't even help fund a homeless shelter.

Animals are easier to rescue than humans. 1) They need less food and items. 2) They aren't plagued with the human mind, which screws us all up. There is a place here in San Francisco that takes people off the street, cleans them up, gives them business clothes, a place to stay, and a job. Greg and I were just at their fundraiser about 3 weeks ago. About 40% of those people don't even show up for the first day of work, and 70% of the people who do, end up back on the street somehow. So all of that money that was spent trying to save human life, ends up being wasted. It's not like people aren't trying to help and to donate to that either. There are thousands of programs around the country just like this one. It's the stupid human brain that gums up the works.
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Post by Bigity » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:11 pm

I had to put down a couple of dogs over the years. Did it myself though, except for the last one. I'd much rather do it myself.

Course, not everyone's vet will give em the stuff to inject I guess.

I got a goldren retriever, full-blooded (far as anyone can tell), because some jerk dumped him somewhere. His freaking loss too, one of the best dogs I've ever had. Now if he didn't shed so much, would be perfect.

I love animals, but I'm also a little more practical. They are just animals. Even ASPCA workers know this, and they don't operate under delusions that every animal can be saved.
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Post by Deacon » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:03 pm

[quote="Lizzegirle";p="682921"]The mice, for example, were found and raised to adulthood so that they could be released back in the wild, far away from humans and their houses. This was so the mice could do their part in the circle of life.[/quote]
Because they weren't in the first place, somehow? You had to artificially help mice keep from dying out? Or is it that those particular mice would've had a slightly smaller circle drawn for them if you hadn't chosen to take it upon yourself to sentence them to a death involving being torn to shreds by predators?
If someone is raising cockroaches down the hall to release into the wild, far away from human life, then that's totally cool with me. I'll be there with some warm muffins in no time.
Why?!
Animals are easier to rescue than humans.
Then give them a week, even. If they're injured and need extensive medical care, go ahead and put them down. Otherwise give them a shot, a full week for someone to decide to adopt them. If not, put them down and move on. It's not like there's a shortage of strays and abanoned animals. We won't run out of stock any time soon.

[quote="Bigity";p="682937"]I love animals, but I'm also a little more practical. They are just animals.[/quote]
Exactly.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Post by dmpotter » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:08 pm

Deacon, WTF.

No, really, WTF. Why is this worth arguing?! I suppose it can count as a rant, and this is Rants and Raves, but seriously: WTF.

So some people might like cute furry animals. How absolutely terrible.

Sure, human life should take priority over animal life, but that has absolutely nothing to do with rescuing a kitten found at someone's doorstep. It's not like the choice was between saving the kitten and saving a human baby.

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Post by Bigity » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:25 pm

If you love cockroaches so much, come down to the south were the things fly and scowl at you for turning on the light or moving a log...but decide not to fight you...this time.

Ugh, is that what people out there do? I guess growing up in farmland, where critters and rodents run underfoot constantly gives me a different outlook.

Releasing rescued mice and cockroaches. Unreal. :shock:
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Today's liberals wish to disarm us so they can run their evil and oppressive agenda on us. The fight against crime is just a convenient excuse to further their agenda. I don't know about you, but if you hear that Williams' guns have been taken, you'll know Williams is dead. -- Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University

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Post by Arc Orion » Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:00 pm

dmpotter has pretty much covered my sentiments.
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Post by Deacon » Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:08 pm

Indeed.

Also, dmpotter, in this case it happens to be something with which I've been fed up, a case of one too many straws causing the camel to launch into a serious debate regarding the rational ramifications of this particular mode of straw transportation :) If it's not worth arguing about, why would it be worth arguing about arguing about it?
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Post by Aerdan » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:57 pm

...

SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!!

Why are you trying your dead level best to turn this thread into a flamewar, Deacon? Does it turn you on? Is it fun to piss people off?

Jesus.
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Post by bagheadinc » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:17 am

I sense much anger in this one.
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Post by Lizzegirle » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:33 am

[quote="Deacon";p="682955"][quote="Lizzegirle";p="682921"]The mice, for example, were found and raised to adulthood so that they could be released back in the wild, far away from humans and their houses. This was so the mice could do their part in the circle of life.[/quote]
Because they weren't in the first place, somehow? You had to artificially help mice keep from dying out? Or is it that those particular mice would've had a slightly smaller circle drawn for them if you hadn't chosen to take it upon yourself to sentence them to a death involving being torn to shreds by predators?[/quote]

I figure it this way. If those baby mice had just died there, then they weren't given the chance to run away. Plus, it's also like helping the predators. Perhaps a bald eagle or some other animal on the brink of extinsion was given the chance to find more food.

[quote="Deacon";p="682955"]
If someone is raising cockroaches down the hall to release into the wild, far away from human life, then that's totally cool with me. I'll be there with some warm muffins in no time.
Why?![/quote]

The cockroach is a part of the circle of life. Sure, they creep me the fuck out, but they play a vital role in the environment. Same as anything else.

[quote="Deacon";p="682955"]
Animals are easier to rescue than humans.
Then give them a week, even. If they're injured and need extensive medical care, go ahead and put them down. Otherwise give them a shot, a full week for someone to decide to adopt them. If not, put them down and move on. It's not like there's a shortage of strays and abanoned animals. We won't run out of stock any time soon. [/quote]

We're over-populated with humans too. They keep breeding without being able to afford them. So should we take the same tactic with them? "Here is this child who was abandoned. Let's give them a run of shot and antibiotics. If he doesn't get adopted by the end of the week though, just euthanize."

There are shelters that take care of children, they're called orphanages and foster homes.

I'm not saying that we should value animal life as much as we should value human life, but it is a life. This is a living thing that is pretty much thrown into a cage and the only chance of survival is adoption. Perhaps a shelter isn't the answer. What is wrong with having strays anyways? Let them out to fend for themselves and let nature do it's thing.

I'm also not saying that I am totally against euthanasia. It breaks my heart to think of these animals being put down because of a lack of resources, but it's the same feeling I get when I see humans dying because of a lack of resources.

[quote="Deacon";p="682955"][quote="Bigity";p="682937"]I love animals, but I'm also a little more practical. They are just animals.[/quote]
Exactly.[/quote][/quote]

How is it our call though? Who said that it was alright for us to take the lives of other species into our hands? When did human life become more important than that of a dog? Is it because we have the ability to stand up and speak our minds about it? I'm sure that animals would have a thing or two to say about the subject if they could.

I feel as though I am fairly practical though too. I realize that we are been overrun by animals, and that something has to be done about it. We try hard to find a family for the animal before our resources run out. I just try my best to not have that happen with the ones that I come across. If I find a stray animal, I'm going to try to take care of it and find it a home instead of running it straight to the pound. If I am able to accomplish that, then no tax dollars are being spent and no one is hurt along the way. Perhaps, it even betters the life of a human.
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Post by Deacon » Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:03 am

[quote="Lizzegirle";p="683053"]The cockroach is a part of the circle of life. Sure, they creep me the fuck out, but they play a vital role in the environment.[/quote]
That's highly debatable, but it turns out they do fine even without this nutjob breeding them.
We're over-populated with humans too. They keep breeding without being able to afford them. So should we take the same tactic with them?
That depends. Are animals on the same level with humans to you? If so, yes.
I'm not saying that we should value animal life as much as we should value human life, but it is a life.
Really. How far do you take that? Do you really apply it to mosquitos and flies and rabid racoons and whatever else? Come on.
What is wrong with having strays anyways?
You apparently have never had pets around strays. And perhaps not even dealt with the cold, starving, and diseased lives of most strays.
I'm also not saying that I am totally against euthanasia. It breaks my heart to think of these animals being put down because of a lack of resources
It's not a lack of resources, but rather a more reasonable and practical application of the resources we have.
[quote="Deacon";p="682955"][quote="Bigity";p="682937"]I love animals, but I'm also a little more practical. They are just animals.
Exactly.[/quote]
How is it our call though?[/quote]
:|

We're the ones with the power and the minds that allow us to think about it. Therefore it's our call. Even if you decide otherwise, you're making a call.
When did human life become more important than that of a dog?
:|

When it was born?
Last edited by Deacon on Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by StruckingFuggle » Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:07 am

When it was born?
So the life of Bin Laden is worth more than that of your dog Sheba was? Or that of some random ghetto punk gangbanger who spends all his welfare money on bling and rims and other such things instead of doing something productive with it, who COULD get a job, but just doesn't bother?
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Post by Deacon » Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:11 am

When he was born, yes. The problem is you're trying to take an angle that's already been cut off previously.
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Post by StruckingFuggle » Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:12 am

But we don't deal with people only "before they're born", but with people and animals who've been living and developed lives and had influences and etc.
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."

"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."

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