Which is more complex?

Talk about whatever you feel like.

Which sport is more complex?

football
8
26%
baseball
2
6%
WRONG POLL the issue is actually which one is a contact sport >:|
1
3%
I don't give a tin fuck
20
65%
 
Total votes: 31

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LQDMTL
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Post by LQDMTL » Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:28 pm

What do you need to play an pick up game of baseball, Bats, balls, gloves, bases, and at least 14-15 people if you can't get all 18 people you need.
I've played baseball in a field with rocks for bases and 5 people total... with a tennis ball, 1 bat and no gloves.

As for mindless... you're telling me the guy out in center field is required to think for the whole game? What's he thinking? "Please be a pop fly..." "Oh noes, they hit the ball let me run and catch it!!" The only time he has to think is when he actually does catch a ball when he looks back at the field of play and decides "where do I throw the ball", and often that simply involves a small check-down list.

Baseball requires athleticism and practiced precision. It is not complex. Umpires may find it complex, having to watch play for fouls etc. But that does not make the game complex itself, nor complex to play.

I would say the hardest player position on the field, for complexity, is actually catcher. As, to my knowledge, it is usually the catcher who has the brunt of the responsibility for knowing opposing batters' habits, styles, etc, and then calling appropriate pitches to counter them. The pitcher may help with that to an extent but really the entire game rests almost exclusively on the arm, and accuracy, of the pitcher and his ability to execute repetitive, heavily practiced mechanical motions.

A pitcher doesn't have to stand there and think "wow.. what's this guy going to do?" The guy's got a bat and he's going to try to hit the ball with it. Now, which pitch will he not hit? Curve ball? Ok sweet... *toss*... hmmm guess I threw that one pretty good.

'Complexity' can be added if there's someone trying to steal a base, but only marginally so. At the height of play baseball is mostly a 1 on 1 sport. Pitcher vs batter. If the batter wins that little battle, other players get involved.


By comparison, the 22 people on the field for every play in the NFL are all intricately involved in every play. Nobody's just standing their watching and waiting for something to happen so that they can join in. What that means is 22 variables, minimum, on every play.

Compare the quarterback to a baseball pitcher and, position for position, you will find a far, far more complex game in the hands of the quarterback. Not only is he responsible for coordinating the entire offensive team, he must constantly read what 21 other guys are doing on the field, estimate what they plan to do the next second, and execute a play in his team's favor. This scenario repeats several hundred times per game.

There are rules for which formations are allowed, and which are not. In each formation, every position has rules which dictate how they may/must stand, who they are to line up against, whether or not they can move or go in motion. There are more rules and possible penalties governing formations and motion prior to the snap in football than most entire sports have.

Offensive linemen have to study opposing defensive linemen before every game, learn their tendencies, figure out blocking schemes, etc. Defensive linemen do the same in reverse to figure out ways to pressure a quarterback, such as trying to sack, bat down balls, force fumbles at the line, intercept the quarterback, force him to the left side, or specifically to the right side (whichever they determine he's worst at dealing with), etc.

Receivers have hundreds of routes to memorize. They also have to change their style of play to suit the defense they're up against. And they must react, and act, dynamically on every play in response to their opposition AND to what they see when they look back at their quarterback. Is he in trouble and rolling right? If so, do I have a route adjustment I should make to help him get the ball out? Did someone intercept the ball, and should I adjust to chase the guy down and tackle him? Or did one of my receiver brothers catch the ball and should I assist him with blocks?

Tight ends have it worse. They also act as linemen and running backs, depending on the play in question. They have to memorize blocking assignments, run gaps, pass routes, etc.

Position for position the game of football is far, far more complex for the players. They have more rules to learn, more to do, more to practice, more to prep before each game, etc, etc, etc.

What's an outfielder got to do in baseball? Practice catching, practice hitting and learn to figure out where to throw the ball next when he catches it.

While football players can certainly make most of what they do seem like second nature, it does not mean that what they're doing isn't complex. Hell, the redskins have a 700 page playbook they're struggling with and they're suffering this year mostly due to the complexity of the game they're trying to play. Too much to learn at once, they struggled hard early on and haven't recovered fully since. That's one team.

Seriously, go read the wiki link I provided. It'll wake you up a bit.

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Post by Deacon » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:42 pm

[quote="Phong";p="696652"]If you look at the rules and conditions for each game I think you'll find that in essence, baseball is a more complex sport.[/quote]
On ESPN a year or two ago I remember seeing them talking about the number of rules (in the major pro leagues) for various sports. There some sports like tennis that were fairly simple, basketball which was more complex, then a big jump to baseball which had a lot of rules, but then they showed football, and it was massive. For reference, see http://www.nfl.com/features/rulebook

Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:43 pm:

PS LQDMTL is right.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Post by Phong » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:54 pm

I just SAID that Strategy was more complex in football and you come back and tell me that they have lots of plays to memorize, I'm not doubting that.

Your assesment of baseball is precisely why competative experiance is neccesary for what we're talking about. You have no fucking CLUE what you're talking about. You have no better then a little league impression of what the outfield is about and you didn't even address any infield positions.

The first thing you learn when you get to High School ball is that you are no longer standing around waiting for the ball to come to you. You are actively running every possibility through your head, you know who to back up, you know where to throw it, and you are playing "Heads Up" defense, paying careful attention to every detail of the game in case the other team slips up, you make the play. First, and most important rule though is this; YOU ARE IN MOTION ON EVERY PLAY.

Seriously though dude, you're doing the exact same thing that you accused me of doing. You're using words like "Dynamically adjusting to the opposition." That can be summed up as "Avoiding the defense and getting open." Which in and of itself even if there ARE alot of variables is an instinctual thing, not a cerebral thing

And lastly, I think I'm discussing this issue with a certain respect for you and the game of football, I'd appreciate it if you returned the favor. Your textual charicatures of baseball players standing around going "DOH, I hope it comes to me." Have no place in a reasonable discussion.

P.S. http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/offic ... reword.jsp
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Post by LQDMTL » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:12 pm

It's quite obvious that you're not only biased towards baseball, you're also deadset against anything we say changing your mind. So this conversation is over. Football is, by and large, a much more complex game than baseball. If you honestly sat down and studied football without your "fuck this, baseball > all" mindset you'd eventually see what we mean. If you want to talk rules, football has more. If you want to talk penalties, football has more. If you want to talk strategy, football has more. If you want to talk player involvement, football has more. You wanna change our minds on that, come up with something other than "the guy in the field over there has to think about hundreds of details while his pitcher plays catch with the guy behind the plate." Dude, seriously, most of every game involves a bunch of dudes who really don't have to be on the field cause nothing's happening. This is why ball clubs go fuckin crazy trying to pick up the bestestest pitcher.

Anyways, whatever. Keep living the dream. We obviously treaded on sacred ground here by calling out just how simple baseball is. I know how you baseball fanatics get when your precious sport is challenged, so I'll step away now and let you stew all by your lonesome... crying about Derek Jeter or whatever other soap-opera-esque crap you use to fill the boring moments between hits these days.

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Post by Phong » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:28 pm

Excuse me? Have you even read my posts, I have very clearly not taken the stance that you are accusing me of. I am the one that has said "Yes, there is more stratagy involved in football." You simply keep repeating what I've already conceded too, and have been totally unwilling to discuss it further, and here you're posting this base hyperbole, refusing to even talk about it like an adult.

Deacon being the one that said a page ago "I refuse to be moved off this mountain!" You rant and rave like a 5 year old, telling me to go sit and stew about it. Me? You're the one that's worked up, bud.
In the fall of 1972 President Nixon announced that the rate of increase of inflation was decreasing. This was the first time that a sitting president used the third derivative to advance his case for reelection. - Hugo Rossi, Mathmetician.

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Post by Deacon » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:46 pm

I will reiterate that I do not think baseball is a simple game, at least at the higher end competitive levels (college, minor and major leagues). It's just that football is just even more complex.
Last edited by Deacon on Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by LQDMTL » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:47 pm

lol

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Post by wocket » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:48 pm

I asked my dad, who played both in high school and college. He also used to be an umpire. And he was a coach for both games.

"Oh, football, hands down. What a stupid debate. :|"
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Post by Deacon » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:49 pm

THANK YOU. Jesus.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Post by LQDMTL » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:51 pm

Hear, hear wocket. Give your pappy a handshake for me. Anyone who knows both games would agree.

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Post by Phong » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:59 pm

[quote="wocket";p="696701"]I asked my dad, who played both in high school and college. He also used to be an umpire. And he was a coach for both games.

"Oh, football, hands down. What a stupid debate. :|"[/quote]

That's good enough for me. I've said repeatedly that I don't have the knowledge of football, but those arguing against me clearly knew exactly jack shit about baseball. I'd be interested to hear more of what your dad has to say on the matter. When I played football very briefly I was just told to hit people, which is why I quit.

P.S. Why would I be offended if baseball is less complicated? That doesn't make football a "Better" game, which is entirely personal preference anyway. I like baseball more, period. Whether or not football is more complicated has little bearing on that.
Last edited by Phong on Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In the fall of 1972 President Nixon announced that the rate of increase of inflation was decreasing. This was the first time that a sitting president used the third derivative to advance his case for reelection. - Hugo Rossi, Mathmetician.

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Post by Deacon » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:59 pm

For reference...

[quote="Deacon";p="695708"]It's not even debatable. Football is more complex beyond a shadow of a doubt.[/quote][quote="Deacon";p="695744"]Why is this even up for debate? It's not even a question.[/quote]
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Post by LQDMTL » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:03 pm

[quote="Phong";p="696706"][quote="wocket";p="696701"]I asked my dad, who played both in high school and college. He also used to be an umpire. And he was a coach for both games.

"Oh, football, hands down. What a stupid debate. :|"[/quote]

That's good enough for me. I've said repeatedly that I don't have the knowledge of football, but those arguing against me clearly knew exactly jack shit about baseball. I'd be interested to hear more of what your dad has to say on the matter. When I played football very briefly I was just told to hit people, which is why I quit.[/quote]

Actually, no. Deacon and I both provided links that, had you bothered to read them, would have taught you a hell of a lot about the game of football. You just chose to take the quick route. I know about baseball. I just hate the sport. I personally found my little derrogatory descriptions of it to be quite humorous, which was the reason I posted in this thread to begin with... to find humor. You assumption that I was getting pissy over this thread was equally amusing.

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Post by Phong » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:03 pm

Everything is up for debate Deacon, even though I accept Wocket's dad's opinion because of his experiance, I still have questions, because the people arguing FOR football have provided little by way of explanation, they simply keep repeating 'It's not up for debate!"
In the fall of 1972 President Nixon announced that the rate of increase of inflation was decreasing. This was the first time that a sitting president used the third derivative to advance his case for reelection. - Hugo Rossi, Mathmetician.

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Post by LQDMTL » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:05 pm

[quote="Phong";p="696710"]Everything is up for debate Deacon, even though I accept Wocket's dad's opinion because of his experiance, I still have questions, because the people arguing FOR football have provided little by way of explanation, they simply keep repeating 'It's not up for debate!"[/quote]
Do you practice this shit? Even I told Deacon that his "not up for debate" stance wasn't helping him. Hell, it was my first post in this thread. And I have never taken that stance in any thread on any forum ever, let alone here. Put on some glasses, or something.

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