[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="696236"]The media isn't accusing Russia. They are saying they are a likely suspect. That's not the same thing.[/quote]
I don't know enough about the subject to comment, but that particular line made me grin like a doofus. There are two reasons for this kind of thing in the media:
1) CYA - To avoid legal troubles and losing face should they turn out to be incorrect, they use terms like "allegedly" even when a criminal is caught red-handed.
2) America is the only country right now that can be condemned off-hand and found guilty of any crime without contest or opposition. You can accuse Washington of damn near anything, openly and with no qualifiers, no matter who you are and how dirty, slimy, and bloody your own pointing finger. On the other hand, outright open accusation of Putin-lead Russia of such acts doesn't seem like a politically friendly thing to do and could cause more tension than it's worth. They get the story without making too many enemies.
Really, to say that the media's couching their verdict in softer tones doesn't mean there's no verdict being delivered.
ex-KGB spy's death and Russian response
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1) Remain civil. Respect others' rights to their viewpoints, even if you believe them to be completely wrong.
2) Sourcing your information is highly recommended. Plagiarism will get you banned.
3) Please create a new thread for a new topic, even if you think it might not get a lot of responses. Do not create mega-threads.
4) If you think the subject of a thread is not important enough to merit a post, simply avoid posting in it. If enough people agree, it will fall off the page soon enough.
[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="696236"]You're talking about the Okhranka, right? As far as I know, all Okhranka were internal. It is the KGB (and perhaps the Cheka?) who acquired the repution of international extra-judiciary black bag operations and wetwork. So unless you'd like to point me to a historical account of the Okhranka operating abroad (I have no doubt they had agents in neighbouring countries... but did they do anything), I'm going to have to say that my "89 year" comment is perfectly correct.[/quote]
You said that:
[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="695912"]given some of the sh*t they've pulled over the past 89 years...[/quote]
You seem to associate communism with "creation of secret service/police" but you are wrong when you say 89 years. You say Okhranka but there are thing much more older than this. Ivan the Terrible created Opritchniki almost 400 years before Tcheka. And Tcheka was not formed to do foreign political assassination but to counter the Whites, its role gradually changed over decades. In your first post in this thread, I thought you were talking about Russian secret service as whole. That is why I said 89 was not correct. But if you talked about foreign activities, then, it is less than 89 years because it started with Stalin in late 30s and truely emerged during Cold war.
[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="695912"]The media isn't accusing Russia. They are saying they are a likely suspect. That's not the same thing. As for me, you're right: I'm not sure either. But inductive reasoning has its merits, given Russia's (not so distant) past...[/quote]
You have not read your link. And you have not read the law. USA use the same law too. They can arrest or kill people threating the president, and I think they can do it in any country they want. And Russia does not hold record for people killed abroad.
[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="695912"]While you obviously haven't read the "Western News" you are quoting, the BBC, on the other hand, has read the Russian news.[/quote]
I do not see anything compromising in that. These newspapers are not, like you would like to believe, sharing the same dictated opinion. And they are clueless just like everybody.
[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="695912"]Bear in mind that Litvinenko claimed that organised crime and the Kremlin were two sides of the same crime. Given the past record of corruption in the russian regime, this isn't exactly an outrageous claim. I agree that it is a dangerous one. Perhaps dangerous enough for the powers that be to get him killed to cover there asses. However, do note that Politkovskaya was investigating state violence in Chechenia, which seems to have lead to her death. How does the mafia get into this, unless they are cozy with the Kremlin.[/quote]
Politkovskaya was criticizing very dangerous people, ex-generals, corrupted business men, corrupted politicians, etc. As I said, Mafiya is not a single, easily identified group of robbers and thieves. She was doing remarkable work but she made many enemies. She was, among other things, an anti Putin journalist, but also hated by everything that is corrupted in the country. Many people wanted to see her dead.
[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="695912"]Perhaps they didn't think they'd get caught. Perhaps this was orchestrated by some rogue element of the russian gov't who had no concern for this entente. I dunno... there are many possible explanations...[/quote]
Nobody got caught, some people from the police say the man was Italian (??). But your are right, there are many possible explanations.
[quote="Deacon";p="696241"]2) America is the only country right now that can be condemned off-hand and found guilty of any crime without contest or opposition. You can accuse Washington of damn near anything, openly and with no qualifiers, no matter who you are and how dirty, slimy, and bloody your own pointing finger. On the other hand, outright open accusation of Putin-lead Russia of such acts doesn't seem like a politically friendly thing to do and could cause more tension than it's worth. They get the story without making too many enemies.[/quote]
Deacon, I do not think we can compare USA with Russia on this matter, Russia used to be the mother of all trouble on the Eurasian continent for more than 80 years. The critic of American politic is very recent and was not that high before the end of cold war. It is just that some people need to find another "evil empire", (like Reagan used to say) since Soviet Union is no more. So activists in world need someone on which they can unleash their critics and sell more copies of their newspaper. Or to attract attention and make money by writing best sellers on USA's "obscur past" or to make video a la Michael Moore.
The problem regarding this case is that media all over the world were emotionally affected by the Politkovskaya case. The high level of solidarity in the journalist community is well known and when one of theirs is being silenced, kidnapped or killed, they tend to become less impartial and tend to misshape things. When a politician chooses to not answer something that is confidential, the media do not take hesitation to bring some populist theories to 1) sell more copies and 2) to force the person to deny what they have said earlier. The British media immediatly accused Russia, only after they learned Litvinenko wrote a book about FSB. They can use "allegedly" or "supposedly", the result in the mass is the same. Just take a look at Herr Doktor's first post:
[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="695912"]This has russian state terrorism written aaaall over it, given some of the sh*t they've pulled over the past 89 years...[/quote]
You said that:
[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="695912"]given some of the sh*t they've pulled over the past 89 years...[/quote]
You seem to associate communism with "creation of secret service/police" but you are wrong when you say 89 years. You say Okhranka but there are thing much more older than this. Ivan the Terrible created Opritchniki almost 400 years before Tcheka. And Tcheka was not formed to do foreign political assassination but to counter the Whites, its role gradually changed over decades. In your first post in this thread, I thought you were talking about Russian secret service as whole. That is why I said 89 was not correct. But if you talked about foreign activities, then, it is less than 89 years because it started with Stalin in late 30s and truely emerged during Cold war.
[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="695912"]The media isn't accusing Russia. They are saying they are a likely suspect. That's not the same thing. As for me, you're right: I'm not sure either. But inductive reasoning has its merits, given Russia's (not so distant) past...[/quote]
You have not read your link. And you have not read the law. USA use the same law too. They can arrest or kill people threating the president, and I think they can do it in any country they want. And Russia does not hold record for people killed abroad.
[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="695912"]While you obviously haven't read the "Western News" you are quoting, the BBC, on the other hand, has read the Russian news.[/quote]
I do not see anything compromising in that. These newspapers are not, like you would like to believe, sharing the same dictated opinion. And they are clueless just like everybody.
There are hundreds of newspaper and media agency in Russia. If you take only those that suit your argumention, you will not have a clear idea of the Russian media as whole.Your claim that the Russian media is not hostile to Litvinenko may be founded for papers/media outlets which aren't state puppets like grani.ru (statement by former economics minister) or Novoye Vremya (who are ready to believe that the Kremly is responsible). However some other ones are a bit less sympathetic to the initiative of just investigating the possibility that the Kremlin might be behind all this.
[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="695912"]Bear in mind that Litvinenko claimed that organised crime and the Kremlin were two sides of the same crime. Given the past record of corruption in the russian regime, this isn't exactly an outrageous claim. I agree that it is a dangerous one. Perhaps dangerous enough for the powers that be to get him killed to cover there asses. However, do note that Politkovskaya was investigating state violence in Chechenia, which seems to have lead to her death. How does the mafia get into this, unless they are cozy with the Kremlin.[/quote]
Politkovskaya was criticizing very dangerous people, ex-generals, corrupted business men, corrupted politicians, etc. As I said, Mafiya is not a single, easily identified group of robbers and thieves. She was doing remarkable work but she made many enemies. She was, among other things, an anti Putin journalist, but also hated by everything that is corrupted in the country. Many people wanted to see her dead.
[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="695912"]Perhaps they didn't think they'd get caught. Perhaps this was orchestrated by some rogue element of the russian gov't who had no concern for this entente. I dunno... there are many possible explanations...[/quote]
Nobody got caught, some people from the police say the man was Italian (??). But your are right, there are many possible explanations.
[quote="Deacon";p="696241"]2) America is the only country right now that can be condemned off-hand and found guilty of any crime without contest or opposition. You can accuse Washington of damn near anything, openly and with no qualifiers, no matter who you are and how dirty, slimy, and bloody your own pointing finger. On the other hand, outright open accusation of Putin-lead Russia of such acts doesn't seem like a politically friendly thing to do and could cause more tension than it's worth. They get the story without making too many enemies.[/quote]
Deacon, I do not think we can compare USA with Russia on this matter, Russia used to be the mother of all trouble on the Eurasian continent for more than 80 years. The critic of American politic is very recent and was not that high before the end of cold war. It is just that some people need to find another "evil empire", (like Reagan used to say) since Soviet Union is no more. So activists in world need someone on which they can unleash their critics and sell more copies of their newspaper. Or to attract attention and make money by writing best sellers on USA's "obscur past" or to make video a la Michael Moore.
The problem regarding this case is that media all over the world were emotionally affected by the Politkovskaya case. The high level of solidarity in the journalist community is well known and when one of theirs is being silenced, kidnapped or killed, they tend to become less impartial and tend to misshape things. When a politician chooses to not answer something that is confidential, the media do not take hesitation to bring some populist theories to 1) sell more copies and 2) to force the person to deny what they have said earlier. The British media immediatly accused Russia, only after they learned Litvinenko wrote a book about FSB. They can use "allegedly" or "supposedly", the result in the mass is the same. Just take a look at Herr Doktor's first post:
[quote="Herr Doktor!";p="695912"]This has russian state terrorism written aaaall over it, given some of the sh*t they've pulled over the past 89 years...[/quote]
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Martin Blank
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[quote="Makh";p="696359"]And you have not read the law. USA use the same law too. They can arrest or kill people threating the president, and I think they can do it in any country they want.[/quote]
This is completely wrong, Makh. US law makes it a crime to threaten the president, but that can only be applied in places where US law holds sway, and that excludes most foreign countries. There is no law that allows for extrajudicial killings for simply threatening the president.
The fact that Litvinenko was killed through the use of Polonium-210 suggests a link to nuclear reactors and a relatively rapid response. As was mentioned before, the half-life for this isotope is fairly short, and that means that it has to be collected, contained, shipped, and sent into England (without setting off radiation detectors) within a fairly narrow window. Could it be former KGB/FSB in the Russian mob? Perhaps. If it is, I think we have much more to worry about when it comes to the safety and security of the Russian nuclear program. If this is Putin adhering to older-style KGB tactics, though, this suggests some dark days ahead for Russia.
This is completely wrong, Makh. US law makes it a crime to threaten the president, but that can only be applied in places where US law holds sway, and that excludes most foreign countries. There is no law that allows for extrajudicial killings for simply threatening the president.
The fact that Litvinenko was killed through the use of Polonium-210 suggests a link to nuclear reactors and a relatively rapid response. As was mentioned before, the half-life for this isotope is fairly short, and that means that it has to be collected, contained, shipped, and sent into England (without setting off radiation detectors) within a fairly narrow window. Could it be former KGB/FSB in the Russian mob? Perhaps. If it is, I think we have much more to worry about when it comes to the safety and security of the Russian nuclear program. If this is Putin adhering to older-style KGB tactics, though, this suggests some dark days ahead for Russia.
If I show up at your door, chances are you did something to bring me there.
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RadicalDreamer
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[quote="Deacon";p="696524"]What if it weren't imported into the UK, but rather originated in the UK itself?[/quote]
The UK doesn't have a very large nuclear program. They have, what, 20 reactors in the contry? All of those are privately owned. I don't think there's much room for corruption, at least at a state/mafiya level.
The UK doesn't have a very large nuclear program. They have, what, 20 reactors in the contry? All of those are privately owned. I don't think there's much room for corruption, at least at a state/mafiya level.
What makes it more unlikely that it was produced by the UK is that polonium output is monitored by the IAEA because it has very few civilian uses. In fact, the IAEA got upset with Iran because it was producing polonium (source). The likelyhood of civilian reactors being used to produce polonium in the UK is fairly low. Research or military reactors would be more likely to be used for its production, though I'm not sure how many of those there are.
Edit: as an interesting aside for myself, my post count is now the first 4 numbers in the Fibonocci sequence.
Edit: as an interesting aside for myself, my post count is now the first 4 numbers in the Fibonocci sequence.
Father of 3
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adciv
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Uses for Polonium:
Uses for Polonium-210 are much more limited due to the short halflife.
Source* mixed or alloyed with beryllium to provide a source of neutrons
* used for eliminating static charges in textile mills (β-sources are more common and less dangerous)
* used on brushes for removing dust from photographic films
* thermoelectric power in space satellites
* source of neutrons
Uses for Polonium-210 are much more limited due to the short halflife.
Repensum Est Canicula
The most dangerous words from an Engineer: "I have an idea."
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson
The most dangerous words from an Engineer: "I have an idea."
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson
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RadicalDreamer
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[quote="Martin Blank";p="696518"][quote="Makh";p="696359"]And you have not read the law. USA use the same law too. They can arrest or kill people threating the president, and I think they can do it in any country they want.[/quote]
This is completely wrong, Makh. US law makes it a crime to threaten the president, but that can only be applied in places where US law holds sway, and that excludes most foreign countries. There is no law that allows for extrajudicial killings for simply threatening the president.[/quote]
Martin Blank, you are very knowledgeable about American law, I am not in a position to argue with you on that. But it is not only matter of written law or concrete judicial procedure. I do not think they write law about what our secret services do. There is nothing written on CIA secret planes, and about how they operate in jail in countries of Eastern Europe like Bulgaria, Romania. As far as I know, CIA can arrest people in countries of Middle East, and they ship them to Guantanamo or Diego Garcia without trial. Are those people subject to American law too?
[quote="Martin Blank";p="696518"]The fact that Litvinenko was killed through the use of Polonium-210 suggests a link to nuclear reactors and a relatively rapid response. As was mentioned before, the half-life for this isotope is fairly short, and that means that it has to be collected, contained, shipped, and sent into England (without setting off radiation detectors) within a fairly narrow window. Could it be former KGB/FSB in the Russian mob? Perhaps.[/quote]
Why people from FSB or ex-KGB would take the risk to use such substance like this, knowing it would attract attention on him, while they could easily shoot one bullet and use another form of lethal poison?
[quote="RadicalDreamer";p="696624"]The UK doesn't have a very large nuclear program. They have, what, 20 reactors in the contry? All of those are privately owned. I don't think there's much room for corruption, at least at a state/mafiya level.[/quote]
People could not believe it when they learned that bombing in London was caused by people born in UK, and not extremist from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.
This is completely wrong, Makh. US law makes it a crime to threaten the president, but that can only be applied in places where US law holds sway, and that excludes most foreign countries. There is no law that allows for extrajudicial killings for simply threatening the president.[/quote]
Martin Blank, you are very knowledgeable about American law, I am not in a position to argue with you on that. But it is not only matter of written law or concrete judicial procedure. I do not think they write law about what our secret services do. There is nothing written on CIA secret planes, and about how they operate in jail in countries of Eastern Europe like Bulgaria, Romania. As far as I know, CIA can arrest people in countries of Middle East, and they ship them to Guantanamo or Diego Garcia without trial. Are those people subject to American law too?
[quote="Martin Blank";p="696518"]The fact that Litvinenko was killed through the use of Polonium-210 suggests a link to nuclear reactors and a relatively rapid response. As was mentioned before, the half-life for this isotope is fairly short, and that means that it has to be collected, contained, shipped, and sent into England (without setting off radiation detectors) within a fairly narrow window. Could it be former KGB/FSB in the Russian mob? Perhaps.[/quote]
Why people from FSB or ex-KGB would take the risk to use such substance like this, knowing it would attract attention on him, while they could easily shoot one bullet and use another form of lethal poison?
We have seen worse.If it is, I think we have much more to worry about when it comes to the safety and security of the Russian nuclear program. If this is Putin adhering to older-style KGB tactics, though, this suggests some dark days ahead for Russia.
[quote="RadicalDreamer";p="696624"]The UK doesn't have a very large nuclear program. They have, what, 20 reactors in the contry? All of those are privately owned. I don't think there's much room for corruption, at least at a state/mafiya level.[/quote]
People could not believe it when they learned that bombing in London was caused by people born in UK, and not extremist from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.
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Martin Blank
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Even the CIA operates under certain laws, and there must be certain reasons for taking lethal action against someone. Criticizing the US president is not one of them. People outside of the United States are not generally subject to the laws of the country, but the CIA operatives are. Congress has been cautiously questioning CIA activities and whether they violate US law.
Possibly because they expected him to die before radiation effects (such as the hair loss) set in, especially as he had lethal levels of thallium in him, too. If he'd died within a day or two, the polonium might never have been noticed. The use of a firearm might attract too much attention in the UK, where virtually all personal ownership of firearms is banned and where cameras might pick up the shooter.Why people from FSB or ex-KGB would take the risk to use such substance like this, knowing it would attract attention on him, while they could easily shoot one bullet and use another form of lethal poison?
If I show up at your door, chances are you did something to bring me there.
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adciv
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Because someone getting knifed in public would be too obvious to everyone around? The radiation spray is like a delayed poison. You don't know exactly when the event occured or where. You can also distribute it (apparently from reading this) very unobtrusively.
Repensum Est Canicula
The most dangerous words from an Engineer: "I have an idea."
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson
The most dangerous words from an Engineer: "I have an idea."
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson
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Martin Blank
- Knower of Things
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adciv
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Re: ex-KGB spy's death and Russian response
Polonium came from Russian Reactor
An Italian was irradiated.
Reading over this, it would appear that Polonium might be easier to sneak in to a country due to the short distance the radiation travels. From the first article, the radiation can only travel a few centimeters and can be stopped by a sheet of paper. It is mostly harmless unless it gets physically inside the body.
Posted Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:09 pm:
Correction: Italian exposed to Polonium-110, not poisoned with it.
An Italian was irradiated.
Reading over this, it would appear that Polonium might be easier to sneak in to a country due to the short distance the radiation travels. From the first article, the radiation can only travel a few centimeters and can be stopped by a sheet of paper. It is mostly harmless unless it gets physically inside the body.
Posted Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:09 pm:
Correction: Italian exposed to Polonium-110, not poisoned with it.
Repensum Est Canicula
The most dangerous words from an Engineer: "I have an idea."
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson
The most dangerous words from an Engineer: "I have an idea."
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson
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