Rants and Raves of a SPPACEY nature.

[spikegirl7]

that was sarcasm. I've already stated my opinion on that subject too.

[The Cid]

What "excuse?" Why does there need to be an excuse for this? What's happened that's so bad anyway? Some respected newsmen and women blasted Imus for being a jackass, his employers received a lot of mail and phone traffic asking them to fire the guy, and he probably gets quite a bit of flak for it personally.

That's what you GET. That's the consequence to your action. There might not be a law, but there's certainly a public outcry against certain behavior. And in part, I think it's that same issue that's allegedly being "ignored" here.

Ever think that some of this outcry is from white people who are sick of what assholes like Don Imus say to some people about white people? Talk about perpetuating a negative image--what, we don't have to clean the cobwebs out of our closet but black people do? I'm offended by Imus. I'm offended by Imus because it perpetuates a horrible image that a lot of folks associate with white people.

[gluttony]

A few months ago I was walking through Bed-Stuy in the early hours of the morning. A big black guy walked right up to me and punched me straight in the face. No robbery or anything, not even a confrontation: he walked away as quickly as he had walked over. I just stood there massaging my cheek for a few minutes, realizing that I had been attacked for no other reason than the color of my skin.

I hate Imus because he's keeping crap like this going. It's 2007.
I don't want some white bigot spouting that crap for higher ratings, and associating me (by nothing other than my skin color) with him.

[Deacon]

And what image exactly is that, Ciddy? If I'm sitting on the couch and watching TV, see a bunch of ghetto girls trotting their tat-covered, corn-rowed asses into a basketball court and make some joke to a friend about nappy-headed ho's, I'm not convinced that makes me a bad person or that joking observations should be outside the bounds of free speech if anyone involved happens to have been born with a different skin tone than me.

[spikegirl7]

i don't think he's a bigot, i think that he just had a bad choice of words. Words, by the way, that are commonly used to describe women (especially black women) by black men and a lot of that pop culture. And since he's white it's taken as a racist statement when in fact it's not.

[Deacon]

[quote="gluttony";p="732179"]I hate Imus because he's keeping crap like this going.[/quote]
You think it's a comedian and radio personality that's spurring an incident of racially motivated violence?? Several months ago? If that's true, then you'll need to nail the likes of Chris Rock and pretty much every single other comedian in the world up there on that giant cross of yours. Don Imus isn't the cause of racial violence in America, and it's sad to me that after some jackass comes and clocks you, with no reaction from you and no other repercussions, you then turn around months later and blame it on Imus. I have no loyalty to the guy, but come on, that's unreasonable.

[gluttony]

If I'm sitting on the couch and watching TV, see a bunch of ghetto girls trottin their tat-covered, corn-rowed asses into a basketball court and make some joke to a friend about nappy-headed ho's, I'm not convinced that makes me a bad person or that joking observations should be outside the bounds of free speech if anyone involved happens to have been born with a different skin tone than me.

It's about intent and tone. If the basketball team was indeed a band of part-time prostitutes who didn't take very good care of their hair, then nappy-headed ho's might apply.

And, I forget who mentioned the rap songs earlier, but everybody knows that they are using the terms "ho" in a completely different manner than Imus was. Just like how nigga =/= nigger, a ho in a rap song is not a whore. It's also not a generic term for any woman.

In the words of Snoop Dogg, who actually sums this up pretty nicely:

[Rappers] are not talking about no collegiate basketball girls who have made it to the next level in education and sports. We’re talking about ho’s that’s in the ‘hood that ain’t doing shit, that’s trying to get a nigga for his money. These are two separate things. First of all, we ain’t no old-ass white men that sit up on MSNBC going hard on black girls. We are rappers that have these songs coming from our minds and our souls that are relevant to what we feel. I will not let them muthafuckas say we in the same league as him.

Edit:

You think it's a comedian and radio personality that's spurring an incident of racially motivated violence?? Several months ago?

Obviously not. Getting punched in the face in Bed-Stuy was a result of years of racial tensions. Imus is prolonging the same racial tensions, which is why I connected the two incidents.

Black people lash out at white people in reaction to racism like this. It used to be a common thing in some neighborhoods, back in the 80s, the violent crack days. Now it's becoming more and more common, once again. There isn't any crack epidemic now- just a huge income gap and a lot of assholes making the situation worse.

[The Cid]

The image of a guy who would hire someone just to write his "n- jokes." That's the image I'm talking about. You can bury your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist if you'd like, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Deacon, it's the same face, just the other side of the coin. Guys like Imus (who as I've said many times is coming under scrutiny more for the fact that he's a repeat offender than anything else) give white people a bad name. I'm sick of being associated with racists. I'm sick of some people believing that the minute they're out of earshot I'm muttering slurs and stereotypes. That you would too, that all white people do that.

Don Imus, Michael Richards, Mel Gibson, and some of these other bigoted fuckin' creep celebrities are a part of the reason that some people stereotype whites as racist. I'm tired of hearing that shit, and I wish that all this outrage would get people to shut the Hell up about their damned bigotry.

[JudgeMental]

Interesting... So 'ho' and 'nigga' are etymologically related to "whore" and "nigger" but have taken on their own connotations? And to a degree changed their denotations?

I have to say, it's difficult to define racism as an element of tone... Intent, sure. But tone is taken differently by different people. Joe may say "blah" and Jared, who is really sensitive, might go "OMFG RACIST!" whereas Mike, who is less sensitive than Jared, might say "heh."

Honestly, I think it's a better idea to not bring comedians too much into issues of racism. They may be an element involved with racism, but it's strongly relative depending on the listener. If people didn't care so much about words, then comedians spouting racially charged content would make no difference. It's discrimination in jobs and racially motivated violence that are more relevant and absolutely defined, IMO.

I don't disregard the relationship between words and their effect on actions/attitudes, but the relationship is really hazy in my mind. Hence, why I don't think comedians should be taken as a serious element of whatever racism that still exists.

[Deacon]

[quote="gluttony";p="732183"]everybody knows that they are using the terms "ho" in a completely different manner than Imus was. Just like how nigga =/= nigger, a ho in a rap song is not a whore.[/quote]
So you think Imus's joking comment was actually revealing an opinion that all black women are whores?

In the words of Snoop Dogg, who actually sums this up pretty nicely:

He sums up nicely the double-standard that exists whereby rappers can denigrate women, white people, black people, encourage violence and drug use, and it's all good because it's all "coming from our minds and our souls that are relevant to what we feel." I didn't realize they were the only ones with that license.

Getting punched in the face in Bed-Stuy was a result of years of racial tensions. Imus is prolonging the same racial tensions ...Black people lash out at white people in reaction to racism like this.

That's an incredibly narrow view and ties into my comment to The Cid below.

[quote="The Cid";p="732186"]Guys like Imus (who as I've said many times is coming under scrutiny more for the fact that he's a repeat offender than anything else) give white people a bad name. I'm sick of being associated with racists. I'm sick of some people believing that the minute they're out of earshot I'm muttering slurs and stereotypes. That you would too, that all white people do that.[/quote]
See, like the above comments from gluttony, this is a truly surprising (though really it shouldn't be) new form of artificial white guilt. You're complaining about black people being racist and then blaming not those who profit from keeping racial tensions alive at any cost like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and nearly every rapper and black comedian out there, but rather a flippant comment from a barely relevant radio personality. So some white guy is racist? It's the white man's fault. Some black guy is racist? It's the white man's fault. A white guy attacks a black man because of the color of his skin? It's the white man's fault. A black guy attacks a white man because of the color of his skin? It's the white man's fault. I'm sick of hearing it, sick of a relatively tiny source of strife--generally having to be consciously made to be a source of strife--being mauled when the truly significant and most insidious sources continue to be overlooked.

Don Imus, Michael Richards, Mel Gibson, and some of these other bigoted fuckin' creep celebrities are a part of the reason that some people stereotype whites as racist.

Wouldn't that be racist in and of itself? If I were to point to both the percentages and the raw numbers of crimes committed by black men, looking at pure facts, I would be called a racist. If I were then to "stereotype" (is it still a stereotype if it's true?) black men as criminals, that would be just plain head-exploding racist. Right? Why is the reverse not true, especially when we're talking about a relative handful even if you narrow it down to look at just those in the entertainment industry?? It's stupid and a ridiculous double-standard to which I refuse to be held.

I'm tired of hearing that shit, and I wish that all this outrage would get people to shut the Hell up about their damned bigotry.

Yes, because if every white comedian were to be silenced, we would suddenly be catapulted into a new era of human harmony. Even if that were true, it doesn't sound all that great to me, though by definition it is a contradiction.

[spikegirl7]

*wants to hug Deacon*

Personally I don't really care. I didn't listen to Don Imus before, I'm not going to now. So I don't really care. This will blow over in a few weeks only with people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson now having a new rallying point.

EDIT FOR CLARITY: I don't care about Don Imus. I don't give a flying shit. I do care about the attitude shown by people like Al Sharpton, and the rush to jump on anything that might be construed as racist and turn it into an example of "how oppressed African-Americans are today." I think it's disgusting and reprehensible that they continue to profit off of prolonging this. But I don't really care about Don Imus.

[gluttony]

So you think Imus's joking comment was actually revealing an opinion that all black women are whores?

No.

He sums up nicely the double-standard that exists whereby rappers can denigrate women, white people, black people, encourage violence and drug use, and it's all good because it's all "coming from our minds and our souls that are relevant to what we feel." I didn't realize they were the only ones with that license.

Being familiar with rap music would help your understanding immensely, as most of their intentions and tones are clear in the music.

And who said they're the only ones with that license? At the moment they're just the only ones in the music industry that are really using it- and kudos to them for it.

[The Cid]

I never said all white comedians needed silenced. But that's irrelevant, because you THINK I did, and when Deacon says it it absolutely must be true.

And yes, it would be racist for people to stereotype white folk as racist because of the actions of a few. But it HAPPENS, and you KNOW it happens. It would be racist to judge all white folk based on actions that a few of their ancestors committed. But it HAPPENS. And if you're going to do that "is it a stereotype if it's true?" routine I say that's exactly why we need to do something about these morons spouting off ignorant stuff.

Because to enough people in this country, that stereotype has been illustrated for them time after time after time. Because something still doesn't seem to add up. Because "equality" is not entirely in the hands of the minorities right now like some people would wish to pretend. If "they" have to clean up "their act," so do "we." (Man do I hate that "we" and "them" crap. If racism truly were a thing of the past as many claim, there wouldn't be a "they" and an "us," and neither side would need their own little agenda.)

Not because anyone owes anyone anything. Because it's the RIGHT THING TO DO.

You're right in that it's just a comedian and it's just a bad joke. But the fact of the matter is, if it was just a comedian and just a bad joke, nobody would have been laughing. And you know as well as I or anyone else, there certainly were. That mentality hasn't died off completely. And yeah, this is so overblown we've all missed the real issues. But that mentality must be addressed if we are to move on.

Refusing to do so is only another way of burying your head in the sand.

[Deacon]

[quote="gluttony";p="732197"]

So you think Imus's joking comment was actually revealing an opinion that all black women are whores?

No.[/quote]
I guess I was confused because you felt like you had to point out that ho does not equal whore, as though that were the assumption.

Being familiar with rap music would help your understanding immensely, as most of their intentions and tones are clear in the music.

I am now forced to question your familiarity with rap music as well as your assumptions about me.

And who said they're the only ones with that license? At the moment they're just the only ones in the music industry that are really using it- and kudos to them for it.

Ooooh...my bad. I thought Snoop was saying that only rappers could say that, when in reality he was saying that only people in the music industry in general could say that?

[gluttony]

I guess I was confused because you felt like you had to point out that ho does not equal whore, as though that were the assumption.

For many people that I've met, that is the assumption. I wanted to bring up the differences between Imus and others saying these sorts of things, and this was a necessary block to build off of.

I am now forced to question your familiarity with rap music as well as your assumptions about me.

Then I'll answer your question: I've been into rap since I first heard Biggie Smalls in 94. I assumed you were not a fan of rap music, because in my experience most people that randomly go off on the "double-standard" tangent aren't fans of rap in the first place. This isn't an absolute, but there is a definite correlation between rap's "moral critics" and those that don't like rap. If the correlation does not apply to you, all you had to do was say so. Otherwise I would have gone on with my assumption.

Ooooh...my bad. I thought Snoop was saying that only rappers could say that, when in reality he was saying that only people in the music industry in general could say that?

You're confused again. I was referring to the license to speak about where you came from and your experiences. Often it feels like rap is the only genre of music that consistently uses this license. As to the "niggas" and "hos" lingo, I would say that is something exclusive to the experiences of a black rapper, assuming that they are being somewhat honest about their experiences.

EDIT: To further clarify, the difference is that ALL the music industry can flex their license to use their personal experiences in their music, whereas usually the only ones who can say "nigga" and "ho" when talking about their personal experiences are rappers.