i have had some time to... cool off from the sheer rage that filled me on reading the thread from which i posted. And now I find it... kinda funny.
The ONLY people who have not been systematically hurt or oppressed in this country are the French, Dutch, Spanish, and English (to my knowledge). What about the Eastern Europeans and such, who were forced into dirty slums in big cities? How about the Chinese, whose places of leisure and work were systematically shut down or ostracized?
Did my ancestors own slaves? No. My ancestors were beaten up in the streets and forced to live in cruddy housing and denied jobs 'cause people assumed they were lazy (Irish). Do I feel obligated to apologize for the plight of black America due to the aftereffects of slavery? Not at all.
And hearing that "ALL WHITES ARE AFFILIATED WITH THE KKK, ARYAN NATION, SKINHEADS, AND EVERY WHITE SUPREMECY GROUP" does not help their case. Not in my eyes, and not in the eyes of any intelligent person.
The governor of GA did the right thing by saying he wouldn't apologize. Bravo.
on the question: should Georgia apologize for slavery
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1) Remain civil. Respect others' rights to their viewpoints, even if you believe them to be completely wrong.
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3) Please create a new thread for a new topic, even if you think it might not get a lot of responses. Do not create mega-threads.
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spikegirl7
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StruckingFuggle
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Granted, AFAIK, there wasn't much in the way of "off-whites" in Georgia at that time, were there?
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
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spikegirl7
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At the time there were a few scatterings of Native Americans hanging around, but other than that, no, really only white people in GA to my knowledge.
But the majority of those were poor sharecroppers or other people who did not generally own slaves. There were (if my understanding of this is correct, this is not a period of history I am extensively schooled in) only a few plantation owners who owned a good number of slaves. Because a plantation and slaves takes a LOT of money and a LOT of land and not a lot of people then had that.
But the majority of those were poor sharecroppers or other people who did not generally own slaves. There were (if my understanding of this is correct, this is not a period of history I am extensively schooled in) only a few plantation owners who owned a good number of slaves. Because a plantation and slaves takes a LOT of money and a LOT of land and not a lot of people then had that.
'What is morality?'
'Judgment to distinguish right and wrong, vision to see the truth, courage to act upon it, dedication to that which is good, integrity to stand by the good at any price.'
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StruckingFuggle
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Also true.
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."
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The Cid
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I think about this topic, and the more I think about it the more I wonder why all the outcry.
Why on Earth would anyone accept an empty apology anyway?
This is my main reason for saying Georgia shouldn't apologize for slavery: it's about 150 years too late, there's still racism in Georgia, and the first 100 of those some 150 years were still extremely oppressive toward black people. Tell me, if you were the descendant of slaves, and after them the victims of Jim Crow legislation in GA, would you even accept an apology from the state? Especially a state where, and I do think this is simply to prove their anti-apology point, they just voted on a Confederate Day.
And those of you who refuse to apologize. What the Hell is your problem?
Look. My family never owned any slaves either. In fact, a few of them were among the Irish immigrants 'round the turn of the 20th century who were the victims of American "racism" themselves. So I don't feel like I owe anyone any kind of apology either. But if I were asked, I would express condolence. Maybe I'm not apologizing for anyone I was ever related to, but I'll definitely say something along the lines of "what your ancestors (or in many cases, someone ELSE's ancestors) suffered on this soil was despicable."
No, an apology wouldn't do anything and like I said before it wouldn't be much of an apology to begin with. If I were in the position of the black folk in GA who want such an apology, even if the state offered one I wouldn't accept. The people who are a problem still haven't gotten their act together, so what kind of an apology would Georgia even be able to GIVE?
Why on Earth would anyone accept an empty apology anyway?
This is my main reason for saying Georgia shouldn't apologize for slavery: it's about 150 years too late, there's still racism in Georgia, and the first 100 of those some 150 years were still extremely oppressive toward black people. Tell me, if you were the descendant of slaves, and after them the victims of Jim Crow legislation in GA, would you even accept an apology from the state? Especially a state where, and I do think this is simply to prove their anti-apology point, they just voted on a Confederate Day.
And those of you who refuse to apologize. What the Hell is your problem?
Look. My family never owned any slaves either. In fact, a few of them were among the Irish immigrants 'round the turn of the 20th century who were the victims of American "racism" themselves. So I don't feel like I owe anyone any kind of apology either. But if I were asked, I would express condolence. Maybe I'm not apologizing for anyone I was ever related to, but I'll definitely say something along the lines of "what your ancestors (or in many cases, someone ELSE's ancestors) suffered on this soil was despicable."
No, an apology wouldn't do anything and like I said before it wouldn't be much of an apology to begin with. If I were in the position of the black folk in GA who want such an apology, even if the state offered one I wouldn't accept. The people who are a problem still haven't gotten their act together, so what kind of an apology would Georgia even be able to GIVE?
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.
[quote="JudgeMental";p="727497"]In Georgia, for all those alive if they are white: they did not own slaves. Their fathers did not own slaves. Their grandfathers (probably, depending on the age of the person in question) did not own slaves.[/quote]
So, Turks should never apologize for what they have done to Armenians? Because none of them were alive?
[quote="Blaze";p="727590"]I want to find a list of the decendents of black people who owned slaves, just so I can find somebody who's complaining about wanting reparations, when in fact they would be paying reparations.[/quote]
This is more frequent, Blaze, in sub-saharan countries of Afrika. Black people having black slaves, even today.
[quote="rkitect";p="727612"]Legislation stating that the governor of my state has to apologize for something that happened 150 years ago, is like saying that I have to apologize for it... I'm pretty sure I had nothing to do with slavery. And I'm sure as hell not sorry for some of these people's plight in life. I have too many African American friends that are making it just fine in today's society in spite of having slavery in their family tree.[/quote]
[quote="The Cid";p="727732"]Look. My family never owned any slaves either. In fact, a few of them were among the Irish immigrants 'round the turn of the 20th century who were the victims of American "racism" themselves.[/quote]
I do not think it is a matter of personal apologies. It is more a matter of collective apologies. 15% of people were slaves. USA was a democracy. USA was not Imperial Russia, was not Soviet Union. USA was not a diktatorship with autocratic and tyrannic leaders. People were going in USA to live as free men. They left their country for that. If you were not a slaveowner, then why you let the others own slaves? You called yourself the land of the free, then why you authorized them to own slaves at the very beginning? You must realize that for me, this thing is hard to understand. I am trying to understand, not to judge.
It is never too late for apologies. Many events, that happened in history stay a long time in the collective memory of one people. Saying it is too late can be true to certain degree, but 150 years is not very long in a collective memory, it depends of the gravity. Collective apologies can not and will NEVER occur a short time after it happened. People need maturity to accept what they have done. Just take example of communism in Eastern Europe and Ex Soviet Republik. More than 20 countries are asking apologies for communist crimes. Do you think Russians are ready for that? No. Most people here will pretend that they have nothing to do with it because they were ruled by a diktator. They think they are clear of everything and will try to do everything they can to avoid any responsibility. Perhaps in 20 or 50 years, it will be possible, but not now. Russia had enough humiliation in the last decade, the people here is just not ready for that.
[quote="The Cid";p="727732"]No, an apology wouldn't do anything and like I said before it wouldn't be much of an apology to begin with. If I were in the position of the black folk in GA who want such an apology, even if the state offered one I wouldn't accept. The people who are a problem still haven't gotten their act together, so what kind of an apology would Georgia even be able to GIVE?[/quote]
Even if it sounds useless, that kind of apologies will at least appease some of them who see this as symbolic justice. Of course, this can not solve the problem entirely, but for a collective memory, it is a good way to heal some of its wounds.
So, Turks should never apologize for what they have done to Armenians? Because none of them were alive?
[quote="Blaze";p="727590"]I want to find a list of the decendents of black people who owned slaves, just so I can find somebody who's complaining about wanting reparations, when in fact they would be paying reparations.[/quote]
This is more frequent, Blaze, in sub-saharan countries of Afrika. Black people having black slaves, even today.
[quote="rkitect";p="727612"]Legislation stating that the governor of my state has to apologize for something that happened 150 years ago, is like saying that I have to apologize for it... I'm pretty sure I had nothing to do with slavery. And I'm sure as hell not sorry for some of these people's plight in life. I have too many African American friends that are making it just fine in today's society in spite of having slavery in their family tree.[/quote]
[quote="The Cid";p="727732"]Look. My family never owned any slaves either. In fact, a few of them were among the Irish immigrants 'round the turn of the 20th century who were the victims of American "racism" themselves.[/quote]
I do not think it is a matter of personal apologies. It is more a matter of collective apologies. 15% of people were slaves. USA was a democracy. USA was not Imperial Russia, was not Soviet Union. USA was not a diktatorship with autocratic and tyrannic leaders. People were going in USA to live as free men. They left their country for that. If you were not a slaveowner, then why you let the others own slaves? You called yourself the land of the free, then why you authorized them to own slaves at the very beginning? You must realize that for me, this thing is hard to understand. I am trying to understand, not to judge.
It is never too late for apologies. Many events, that happened in history stay a long time in the collective memory of one people. Saying it is too late can be true to certain degree, but 150 years is not very long in a collective memory, it depends of the gravity. Collective apologies can not and will NEVER occur a short time after it happened. People need maturity to accept what they have done. Just take example of communism in Eastern Europe and Ex Soviet Republik. More than 20 countries are asking apologies for communist crimes. Do you think Russians are ready for that? No. Most people here will pretend that they have nothing to do with it because they were ruled by a diktator. They think they are clear of everything and will try to do everything they can to avoid any responsibility. Perhaps in 20 or 50 years, it will be possible, but not now. Russia had enough humiliation in the last decade, the people here is just not ready for that.
[quote="The Cid";p="727732"]No, an apology wouldn't do anything and like I said before it wouldn't be much of an apology to begin with. If I were in the position of the black folk in GA who want such an apology, even if the state offered one I wouldn't accept. The people who are a problem still haven't gotten their act together, so what kind of an apology would Georgia even be able to GIVE?[/quote]
Even if it sounds useless, that kind of apologies will at least appease some of them who see this as symbolic justice. Of course, this can not solve the problem entirely, but for a collective memory, it is a good way to heal some of its wounds.
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rkitect
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Out of curiosity, has Germany been made to apologize for the holocaust? I don't mean some memorial (I think we have several museums, months and days set aside to remember the atrocity that was slavery), but a down right publicly spoken apology.
If not, I think it's a fairly similar matter, severity of the events put aside.
I should also say that I feel anyone that believes slavery should still be used today should be thrown into the streets and flogged. Just thought I would let it be know where exactly I stand on that subject.
If not, I think it's a fairly similar matter, severity of the events put aside.
I should also say that I feel anyone that believes slavery should still be used today should be thrown into the streets and flogged. Just thought I would let it be know where exactly I stand on that subject.
A very large man is ripping your ears off Percy. I suggest you do as he says.
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Deacon
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[quote="rkitect";p="727788"]I should also say that I feel anyone that believes slavery should still be used today should be thrown into the streets and flogged.[/quote]
BIGOT!
BIGOT!
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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rkitect
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[quote="Makh";p="727751"]
People were going in USA to live as free men. They left their country for that. If you were not a slaveowner, then why you let the others own slaves? You called yourself the land of the free, then why you authorized them to own slaves at the very beginning?[/quote]
A majority of these people were not coming into the US to be free, but instead were being shipped in for the specific purpose of being sold into slavery. A business that I do not condone or ever wish to see again in the USA. Unfortunately, this attitude of "Send us your poor, your hungry" is what is causing the US so much headache right now because immigrants feel that makes it free to come in and make our money without living by our laws.
[quote="Makh";p="727751"]
It is never too late for apologies.
[/quote]
I agree, it took me 3 years to apologize to my best friend for telling the girl he was dating I was in love with her. Situation is long to explain, I felt I was in the right, blah blah we're all still close friends now. However, why would you apologize to someone for something you didn't do?
[quote="Makh";p="727751"]
People need maturity to accept what they have done. [/quote]
What exactly have I done? I'd be willing to bet that my maturity level is much higher than a majority of the people demanding an apology. The problem here is that most of these people feel they deserve an apology because slavery is what is currently keeping them from making 3 digit salaries and living in multi-million dollar homes. They feel they have been wronged because of this event that happened 150 years ago. An apology would only lead to an outcry for payment of reparations. Don't believe me? It's already happened. Also, to bring things closer to home they are now wanting a national apology for slavery. That's right, now California and Hawaii apparently have to be sorry for slavery as well. Give a mouse a cookie...
Posted Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:39 pm:
[quote="Deacon";p="727790"][quote="rkitect";p="727788"]I should also say that I feel anyone that believes slavery should still be used today should be thrown into the streets and flogged.[/quote]
BIGOT![/quote]
Apparently Deacon wants to be the first that is flogged for loving the idea of slavery ;p
People were going in USA to live as free men. They left their country for that. If you were not a slaveowner, then why you let the others own slaves? You called yourself the land of the free, then why you authorized them to own slaves at the very beginning?[/quote]
A majority of these people were not coming into the US to be free, but instead were being shipped in for the specific purpose of being sold into slavery. A business that I do not condone or ever wish to see again in the USA. Unfortunately, this attitude of "Send us your poor, your hungry" is what is causing the US so much headache right now because immigrants feel that makes it free to come in and make our money without living by our laws.
[quote="Makh";p="727751"]
It is never too late for apologies.
[/quote]
I agree, it took me 3 years to apologize to my best friend for telling the girl he was dating I was in love with her. Situation is long to explain, I felt I was in the right, blah blah we're all still close friends now. However, why would you apologize to someone for something you didn't do?
[quote="Makh";p="727751"]
People need maturity to accept what they have done. [/quote]
What exactly have I done? I'd be willing to bet that my maturity level is much higher than a majority of the people demanding an apology. The problem here is that most of these people feel they deserve an apology because slavery is what is currently keeping them from making 3 digit salaries and living in multi-million dollar homes. They feel they have been wronged because of this event that happened 150 years ago. An apology would only lead to an outcry for payment of reparations. Don't believe me? It's already happened. Also, to bring things closer to home they are now wanting a national apology for slavery. That's right, now California and Hawaii apparently have to be sorry for slavery as well. Give a mouse a cookie...
Posted Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:39 pm:
[quote="Deacon";p="727790"][quote="rkitect";p="727788"]I should also say that I feel anyone that believes slavery should still be used today should be thrown into the streets and flogged.[/quote]
BIGOT![/quote]
Apparently Deacon wants to be the first that is flogged for loving the idea of slavery ;p
A very large man is ripping your ears off Percy. I suggest you do as he says.
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spikegirl7
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I really don't think that the urge for an apology comes from some sense of hurt, exactly. No one living now has been personally hurt by slavery.
What i am AFRAID that it is about is to have a one-up on the state. A way to feel entitled and slighted at the same time and have the State confirm it.
What I think would be OK is if the state of GA apologized to the black senior citizens and other black people who have been directly hurt by it for Jim Crow.
Also, although most of the slaves in this country were black there were white slaves and native American slaves. Saying that slavery is just a black issue is kinda wrong.
What i am AFRAID that it is about is to have a one-up on the state. A way to feel entitled and slighted at the same time and have the State confirm it.
What I think would be OK is if the state of GA apologized to the black senior citizens and other black people who have been directly hurt by it for Jim Crow.
Also, although most of the slaves in this country were black there were white slaves and native American slaves. Saying that slavery is just a black issue is kinda wrong.
'What is morality?'
'Judgment to distinguish right and wrong, vision to see the truth, courage to act upon it, dedication to that which is good, integrity to stand by the good at any price.'
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Deacon
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And to lay the blame on anyone with fairly light skin is rather retarded as well. I've never owned slaves, and none of my family as far back as I can reasonably trace has owned slaves, and aside from a handful of notable exceptions, everyone who fought and died to end slavery in America was white. Additionally, Europeans didn't invent slavery, nor were they the most prolific perpetrators of it. Most of the European slave traders who swung by Africa bought existing slaves off of other Africans who'd already taken them as slaves, as was customary in Africa.
But, no, they're totally right. I should totally stand up and apologize to everyone that slavery existed 150 years ago.
I wonder if I should also apologize that Africans continue to enslave other Africans. It's probably my fault because I was born with lighter colored skin.
But, no, they're totally right. I should totally stand up and apologize to everyone that slavery existed 150 years ago.
I wonder if I should also apologize that Africans continue to enslave other Africans. It's probably my fault because I was born with lighter colored skin.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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spikegirl7
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OH! Let's not forget that racism is the fault of American slave owners! Never mind that there were white slaves in this country. Don't mind that racism has been around for longer than living memory (Jews in Egypt anyone?). And of course the fact that race wasn't a motivating factor in slavery (other than how they would stand out in a mostly-white crowd) should never be considered.
'What is morality?'
'Judgment to distinguish right and wrong, vision to see the truth, courage to act upon it, dedication to that which is good, integrity to stand by the good at any price.'
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Deacon
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Well, I mean, it's not like they were enslaved because they were black, but racism was certainly a factor both before and after the Civil War, though it in no way was limited to or even really suffered the most by blacks.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
[quote="rkitect";p="727791"][quote="Makh";p="727751"]
People were going in USA to live as free men. They left their country for that. If you were not a slaveowner, then why you let the others own slaves? You called yourself the land of the free, then why you authorized them to own slaves at the very beginning?[/quote]
A majority of these people were not coming into the US to be free, but instead were being shipped in for the specific purpose of being sold into slavery. A business that I do not condone or ever wish to see again in the USA.[/quote]
Yes, but that does not answer my question. All people say slaveowners were a minority and isolated cases, then why you did not arrest them, or why you let them own slaves? Why Thomas Jefferson do not say anything about slavery in the constitution?
[quote="rkitect";p="727791"]What exactly have I done? I'd be willing to bet that my maturity level is much higher than a majority of the people demanding an apology. The problem here is that most of these people feel they deserve an apology because slavery is what is currently keeping them from making 3 digit salaries and living in multi-million dollar homes. They feel they have been wronged because of this event that happened 150 years ago. An apology would only lead to an outcry for payment of reparations. Don't believe me? It's already happened. Also, to bring things closer to home they are now wanting a national apology for slavery. That's right, now California and Hawaii apparently have to be sorry for slavery as well. Give a mouse a cookie...[/quote]
Why are you against this initiative? Why are you against apologies for your own citizen?
[quote="spikegirl7";p="727830"]OH! Let's not forget that racism is the fault of American slave owners! Never mind that there were white slaves in this country. Don't mind that racism has been around for longer than living memory (Jews in Egypt anyone?). And of course the fact that race wasn't a motivating factor in slavery (other than how they would stand out in a mostly-white crowd) should never be considered.[/quote]
I was not aware of white slaves in USA. If Slavery, of white or black people, seems to be such an aberration to you, how do you explain, to a foreigner like me, that American people let such things happen during so many years?
People were going in USA to live as free men. They left their country for that. If you were not a slaveowner, then why you let the others own slaves? You called yourself the land of the free, then why you authorized them to own slaves at the very beginning?[/quote]
A majority of these people were not coming into the US to be free, but instead were being shipped in for the specific purpose of being sold into slavery. A business that I do not condone or ever wish to see again in the USA.[/quote]
Yes, but that does not answer my question. All people say slaveowners were a minority and isolated cases, then why you did not arrest them, or why you let them own slaves? Why Thomas Jefferson do not say anything about slavery in the constitution?
[quote="rkitect";p="727791"]What exactly have I done? I'd be willing to bet that my maturity level is much higher than a majority of the people demanding an apology. The problem here is that most of these people feel they deserve an apology because slavery is what is currently keeping them from making 3 digit salaries and living in multi-million dollar homes. They feel they have been wronged because of this event that happened 150 years ago. An apology would only lead to an outcry for payment of reparations. Don't believe me? It's already happened. Also, to bring things closer to home they are now wanting a national apology for slavery. That's right, now California and Hawaii apparently have to be sorry for slavery as well. Give a mouse a cookie...[/quote]
Why are you against this initiative? Why are you against apologies for your own citizen?
[quote="spikegirl7";p="727830"]OH! Let's not forget that racism is the fault of American slave owners! Never mind that there were white slaves in this country. Don't mind that racism has been around for longer than living memory (Jews in Egypt anyone?). And of course the fact that race wasn't a motivating factor in slavery (other than how they would stand out in a mostly-white crowd) should never be considered.[/quote]
I was not aware of white slaves in USA. If Slavery, of white or black people, seems to be such an aberration to you, how do you explain, to a foreigner like me, that American people let such things happen during so many years?
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Deacon
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[quote="Makh";p="727875"]Why Thomas Jefferson do not say anything about slavery in the constitution?[/quote]
Because in the 1700s it was still fairly normal throughout the world, especially in areas centered around agriculture, and had been for thousands of years. They weren't declaring independence and setting up their own government for the purpose of eliminating slavery.
Because in the 1700s it was still fairly normal throughout the world, especially in areas centered around agriculture, and had been for thousands of years. They weren't declaring independence and setting up their own government for the purpose of eliminating slavery.
Eventually, less than 100 years after independence was declared and a fledgling nation began to fight for their right to exist, society decided that slavery wasn't cool, so they did exactly what you said. In fact, 360,000 people, almost all white, died to end it and preserve the Union, while an additional 275,200 were wounded for the cause.All people say slaveowners were a minority and isolated cases, then why you did not arrest them, or why you let them own slaves?
Why are you for it? What do you believe it will accomplish? Why are you so adamantly insistent that it be done? To me, there doesn't seem to be any legitimate reason for it.Why are you against this initiative? Why are you against apologies for your own citizen?
I really don't understand what you're asking.how do you explain, to a foreigner like me, that American people let such things happen during so many years?
Last edited by Deacon on Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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