Ancestral Guilt
Forum rules
1) Remain civil. Respect others' rights to their viewpoints, even if you believe them to be completely wrong.
2) Sourcing your information is highly recommended. Plagiarism will get you banned.
3) Please create a new thread for a new topic, even if you think it might not get a lot of responses. Do not create mega-threads.
4) If you think the subject of a thread is not important enough to merit a post, simply avoid posting in it. If enough people agree, it will fall off the page soon enough.
1) Remain civil. Respect others' rights to their viewpoints, even if you believe them to be completely wrong.
2) Sourcing your information is highly recommended. Plagiarism will get you banned.
3) Please create a new thread for a new topic, even if you think it might not get a lot of responses. Do not create mega-threads.
4) If you think the subject of a thread is not important enough to merit a post, simply avoid posting in it. If enough people agree, it will fall off the page soon enough.
-
Bigity
- Redshirt
- Posts: 6091
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:34 pm
- Real Name: Stu
- Gender: Male
- Location: West Texas
Where does it show up besides modern times?
No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave. -- Calvin Coolidge
Today's liberals wish to disarm us so they can run their evil and oppressive agenda on us. The fight against crime is just a convenient excuse to further their agenda. I don't know about you, but if you hear that Williams' guns have been taken, you'll know Williams is dead. -- Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University
Today's liberals wish to disarm us so they can run their evil and oppressive agenda on us. The fight against crime is just a convenient excuse to further their agenda. I don't know about you, but if you hear that Williams' guns have been taken, you'll know Williams is dead. -- Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University
-
Bandersnatch
- Redshirt
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:25 am
The crusades, which are hardly modern: "Hey, there are Muslims on our holy ground!" Medieval Christians felt this was unjust and decided to boot them out. And, as was already said in this topic, Muslims remember that attempt.
Specific cases of "Hey, this group hated that group because of what they did!" in ancient times are difficult to find for all but ancient history majors, but they certainly exist. Attempting to find specific sources turns up quite a few restricted sites that require payment for access (Something I'm not able to afford at the moment), but I also found a site mentioning that propaganda (A primary tool in creating ancestral guilt) has been around since the beginning of civilization, more or less.
http://www.students.sbc.edu/mckinney03/ ... aganda.htm
Specific cases of "Hey, this group hated that group because of what they did!" in ancient times are difficult to find for all but ancient history majors, but they certainly exist. Attempting to find specific sources turns up quite a few restricted sites that require payment for access (Something I'm not able to afford at the moment), but I also found a site mentioning that propaganda (A primary tool in creating ancestral guilt) has been around since the beginning of civilization, more or less.
http://www.students.sbc.edu/mckinney03/ ... aganda.htm
"Or even worse are those times when I catch myself trying to twist his message to make it say what I want him to say, and then only hearing that. This can be a very subtle thing, and it is surprising how skillful I can be in doing it. Just by twisting his words a small amount, by distorting his meaning just a little, I can make it appear that he is not only saying the thing I want to hear, but that he is the person I want him to be." -Carl Rogers
-
Bigity
- Redshirt
- Posts: 6091
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:34 pm
- Real Name: Stu
- Gender: Male
- Location: West Texas
No, the guilt part is definitely modern, and very much a case of a group that wants to advance an agenda rather than any actual pain still felt.
No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave. -- Calvin Coolidge
Today's liberals wish to disarm us so they can run their evil and oppressive agenda on us. The fight against crime is just a convenient excuse to further their agenda. I don't know about you, but if you hear that Williams' guns have been taken, you'll know Williams is dead. -- Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University
Today's liberals wish to disarm us so they can run their evil and oppressive agenda on us. The fight against crime is just a convenient excuse to further their agenda. I don't know about you, but if you hear that Williams' guns have been taken, you'll know Williams is dead. -- Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University
-
Bandersnatch
- Redshirt
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:25 am
I still disagree that this is exclusively modern (And you completely ignored the point about the crusades. 800 years ago is hardly modern).
ANY use of propaganda is very much a case of a group wanting to advance an agenda.
The argument of "pain still felt" is a case-by-case basis. Are you telling me that people that were actually in a concentration camp and were some of the few survivors don't feel any pain when they think of it?
ANY use of propaganda is very much a case of a group wanting to advance an agenda.
The argument of "pain still felt" is a case-by-case basis. Are you telling me that people that were actually in a concentration camp and were some of the few survivors don't feel any pain when they think of it?
"Or even worse are those times when I catch myself trying to twist his message to make it say what I want him to say, and then only hearing that. This can be a very subtle thing, and it is surprising how skillful I can be in doing it. Just by twisting his words a small amount, by distorting his meaning just a little, I can make it appear that he is not only saying the thing I want to hear, but that he is the person I want him to be." -Carl Rogers
-
Deacon
- Shining Adonis
- Posts: 44234
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
- Gender: Male
- Location: Lakehills, TX
[quote="Bandersnatch";p="727950"]And you completely ignored the point about the crusades. 800 years ago is hardly modern.[/quote]
That there should be guilt associated with it, however, is fairly modern. This "national apology" and such is a fairly modern phenomenon, I think is his point.
That there should be guilt associated with it, however, is fairly modern. This "national apology" and such is a fairly modern phenomenon, I think is his point.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
-
Bigity
- Redshirt
- Posts: 6091
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:34 pm
- Real Name: Stu
- Gender: Male
- Location: West Texas
[quote="Bandersnatch";p="727950"]I still disagree that this is exclusively modern (And you completely ignored the point about the crusades. 800 years ago is hardly modern).
ANY use of propaganda is very much a case of a group wanting to advance an agenda.
The argument of "pain still felt" is a case-by-case basis. Are you telling me that people that were actually in a concentration camp and were some of the few survivors don't feel any pain when they think of it?[/quote]
You aren't getting the point I'm making. If you still can't after Deacon's response, I don't know how to make it any plainer.
ANY use of propaganda is very much a case of a group wanting to advance an agenda.
The argument of "pain still felt" is a case-by-case basis. Are you telling me that people that were actually in a concentration camp and were some of the few survivors don't feel any pain when they think of it?[/quote]
You aren't getting the point I'm making. If you still can't after Deacon's response, I don't know how to make it any plainer.
No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave. -- Calvin Coolidge
Today's liberals wish to disarm us so they can run their evil and oppressive agenda on us. The fight against crime is just a convenient excuse to further their agenda. I don't know about you, but if you hear that Williams' guns have been taken, you'll know Williams is dead. -- Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University
Today's liberals wish to disarm us so they can run their evil and oppressive agenda on us. The fight against crime is just a convenient excuse to further their agenda. I don't know about you, but if you hear that Williams' guns have been taken, you'll know Williams is dead. -- Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University
-
Bandersnatch
- Redshirt
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:25 am
[quote="Deacon";p="727958"][quote="Bandersnatch";p="727950"]And you completely ignored the point about the crusades. 800 years ago is hardly modern.[/quote]
That there should be guilt associated with it, however, is fairly modern. This "national apology" and such is a fairly modern phenomenon, I think is his point.[/quote]
National anything is fairly recent in history. But you and I are talking about different things, it seems.
I don't neccessarily mean guilt as in regret (With the exception of self-imposed ancestral guilt, but that's hardly futhering an agenda when it's something the individual decides themself), I mean guilt as in knowledge of wrongdoing. To be able to say, "My people really dropped the ball at this point."
They could believe what their ancestors were trying to do at the time was right, they just screwed up one way or another. And until the guilt is transferred to what the group represented at the time, it serves as a burden to keep them from repeating the same atrocity or at the very least, doing a better job of it next time. They could also feel regret about what their ancestors did, but that's really more of an individual basis.
Also, I thought of a good ancient times example. In ancient Rome, when a person committed a crime, not only were they punished, but their children were blacklisted. For a certain number of generations they, too, were treated like criminals. The grandchildren who weren't even born at the time are still considered guilty by blood. The same thing has happened in India for ages and still does, although activists are working to change that.
Now... National apologies? It depends on the situation, but 9 times out of 10, the idea shouldn't even be suggested. A national apology would not convey the sentiments of the entire nation and therefore be hollow, which is worse than not apologizing at all.
That there should be guilt associated with it, however, is fairly modern. This "national apology" and such is a fairly modern phenomenon, I think is his point.[/quote]
National anything is fairly recent in history. But you and I are talking about different things, it seems.
I don't neccessarily mean guilt as in regret (With the exception of self-imposed ancestral guilt, but that's hardly futhering an agenda when it's something the individual decides themself), I mean guilt as in knowledge of wrongdoing. To be able to say, "My people really dropped the ball at this point."
They could believe what their ancestors were trying to do at the time was right, they just screwed up one way or another. And until the guilt is transferred to what the group represented at the time, it serves as a burden to keep them from repeating the same atrocity or at the very least, doing a better job of it next time. They could also feel regret about what their ancestors did, but that's really more of an individual basis.
Also, I thought of a good ancient times example. In ancient Rome, when a person committed a crime, not only were they punished, but their children were blacklisted. For a certain number of generations they, too, were treated like criminals. The grandchildren who weren't even born at the time are still considered guilty by blood. The same thing has happened in India for ages and still does, although activists are working to change that.
Now... National apologies? It depends on the situation, but 9 times out of 10, the idea shouldn't even be suggested. A national apology would not convey the sentiments of the entire nation and therefore be hollow, which is worse than not apologizing at all.
"Or even worse are those times when I catch myself trying to twist his message to make it say what I want him to say, and then only hearing that. This can be a very subtle thing, and it is surprising how skillful I can be in doing it. Just by twisting his words a small amount, by distorting his meaning just a little, I can make it appear that he is not only saying the thing I want to hear, but that he is the person I want him to be." -Carl Rogers
-
Bigity
- Redshirt
- Posts: 6091
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:34 pm
- Real Name: Stu
- Gender: Male
- Location: West Texas
But apparently a nation paying money isn't a hollow act.
No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave. -- Calvin Coolidge
Today's liberals wish to disarm us so they can run their evil and oppressive agenda on us. The fight against crime is just a convenient excuse to further their agenda. I don't know about you, but if you hear that Williams' guns have been taken, you'll know Williams is dead. -- Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University
Today's liberals wish to disarm us so they can run their evil and oppressive agenda on us. The fight against crime is just a convenient excuse to further their agenda. I don't know about you, but if you hear that Williams' guns have been taken, you'll know Williams is dead. -- Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University
-
Bandersnatch
- Redshirt
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:25 am
Mmm. That part slipped my mind. I'd say it's case by case.
Retribution for property damage is common courtesy.
If you blow up a city with plenty of civilians in it, you help rebuild it, ne? The civilians did no wrong to you (Arguably, even the lower rank soldiers were just following the leader, and in some rare cases, their only other choice was death, so they're more or less innocent), and you just went and ruined their livelihood. Not only is it common courtesy to help them back on their feet but it will result in fewer attacks on civilian property and help keep people from using it as motivation to continue hating the attacker. I've heard a saying, for every terrorist killed, two more are made.
Retribution for property damage is common courtesy.
If you blow up a city with plenty of civilians in it, you help rebuild it, ne? The civilians did no wrong to you (Arguably, even the lower rank soldiers were just following the leader, and in some rare cases, their only other choice was death, so they're more or less innocent), and you just went and ruined their livelihood. Not only is it common courtesy to help them back on their feet but it will result in fewer attacks on civilian property and help keep people from using it as motivation to continue hating the attacker. I've heard a saying, for every terrorist killed, two more are made.
"Or even worse are those times when I catch myself trying to twist his message to make it say what I want him to say, and then only hearing that. This can be a very subtle thing, and it is surprising how skillful I can be in doing it. Just by twisting his words a small amount, by distorting his meaning just a little, I can make it appear that he is not only saying the thing I want to hear, but that he is the person I want him to be." -Carl Rogers
-
Bigity
- Redshirt
- Posts: 6091
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:34 pm
- Real Name: Stu
- Gender: Male
- Location: West Texas
I can't agree. Certain peoples will hate other certain peoples no matter what, forever. Most of the stuff you mention is just what the countries/group does to make themselves feel better afterwards.
No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave. -- Calvin Coolidge
Today's liberals wish to disarm us so they can run their evil and oppressive agenda on us. The fight against crime is just a convenient excuse to further their agenda. I don't know about you, but if you hear that Williams' guns have been taken, you'll know Williams is dead. -- Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University
Today's liberals wish to disarm us so they can run their evil and oppressive agenda on us. The fight against crime is just a convenient excuse to further their agenda. I don't know about you, but if you hear that Williams' guns have been taken, you'll know Williams is dead. -- Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University
-
adciv
- Redshirt
- Posts: 11723
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:20 am
- Real Name: Lord Al-Briaca
- Location: Middle of Nowhere, MD
[quote="Rorschach";p="727775"][quote="adciv";p="727702"]
Ok, people still blame the U.S. for nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki and say it makes us more likely to use nuclear weapons in the future.[/quote]
Who?[/quote]
Other's pretty much answered by anther. But for this one I'll also add Europeans. I've read the "Have your say" on BBC. I think just about everyone I read that mentions the U.S. and nuclear weapons (this is mostly in relation to the Iran hiding the nuke program) was that we would be the most likely to use them in the future since we used them in WWII.
Sorry, can't be more specific without looking through the archives.
Ok, people still blame the U.S. for nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki and say it makes us more likely to use nuclear weapons in the future.[/quote]
Who?[/quote]
Other's pretty much answered by anther. But for this one I'll also add Europeans. I've read the "Have your say" on BBC. I think just about everyone I read that mentions the U.S. and nuclear weapons (this is mostly in relation to the Iran hiding the nuke program) was that we would be the most likely to use them in the future since we used them in WWII.
Sorry, can't be more specific without looking through the archives.
Repensum Est Canicula
The most dangerous words from an Engineer: "I have an idea."
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson
The most dangerous words from an Engineer: "I have an idea."
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson
-
Kerui
- Redshirt
- Posts: 339
- Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:54 pm
- Gender: Male
- Location: Tamsui, Taiwan
- Contact:
[quote="adciv";p="727702"]
Even living in a country that's unhealthily obsessed with the past, I still find these claims hard to believe.
Maybe I've just been lucky - or not paying attention - can you provide some examples beyond 'people', please?[/quote]
Mostly, as far as I can tell, things like reparations for blacks in the United States are aimed at larger companies. Generally, these are companies that can date themselves back to near the slave trade era...like here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6422721.stm
At most they are long shot lawsuits...and other examples are of a lesser extent, but there are still families who seek out the "whitey" that may have harmed his/her ancestors.
As far as Germany and the holocaust, I'd feel guilty about it still too. In fact, one of Germany's PMs recently set into motion taking Hitler's citizenship away...not to deny that he had anything to do with Germany, but to do something to the effect of humiliate him (to the extent a dead man can be humiliated).
This stuff exists.
Even living in a country that's unhealthily obsessed with the past, I still find these claims hard to believe.
Maybe I've just been lucky - or not paying attention - can you provide some examples beyond 'people', please?[/quote]
Mostly, as far as I can tell, things like reparations for blacks in the United States are aimed at larger companies. Generally, these are companies that can date themselves back to near the slave trade era...like here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6422721.stm
At most they are long shot lawsuits...and other examples are of a lesser extent, but there are still families who seek out the "whitey" that may have harmed his/her ancestors.
As far as Germany and the holocaust, I'd feel guilty about it still too. In fact, one of Germany's PMs recently set into motion taking Hitler's citizenship away...not to deny that he had anything to do with Germany, but to do something to the effect of humiliate him (to the extent a dead man can be humiliated).
This stuff exists.
-
Seraphim
- Redshirt
- Posts: 2205
- Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:36 pm
- Gender: Male
- Location: Detroit, Michigan
[quote="adciv";p="727702"]People still blame whites for slavery, regardless of when they came here or where they or their ancestors lived.[/quote]
I've never really run into that outside of Malcolm X and Spike Lee. And Even Spike Lee's not THAT bad. He recognizes that some white people aren't deranged monsters.
Are you referring to the notion of slave reparations perchance?
Posted Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:32 am:
[quote="Kerui";p="728893"][quote="adciv";p="727702"]
As far as Germany and the holocaust, I'd feel guilty about it still too. In fact, one of Germany's PMs recently set into motion taking Hitler's citizenship away...not to deny that he had anything to do with Germany, but to do something to the effect of humiliate him (to the extent a dead man can be humiliated).
This stuff exists.[/quote][/quote]
People didn't learn enough from World War I.
There's a resurgency of German nationalism right now.
Issues: Guilt and unhistorical ownership.
Teenagers in Germany had nothing to do with the holocaust, and they're getting pretty sick of people always trying to make them feel bad for it. I would to. They weren't even born. Hell, most of their parents weren't even born.
The other part is that Germany currently has 16 adminstrative districts. Something akin to a state. They used to have around 25. They lost quite a few states in peace deals following World War I and II.
Alsace-Lorraine went to France. Historical.
Schleswig went to Denmark. Semi-historical.
Danzig went to Poland. Historical.
Ponzan went to Poland. Very Historical.
West Prussia went to Poland. Semi-historical to non-historical.
East Prussia is still occupied by Russia. No historical basis.
East Pommerania is occupied by Poland. No historical basis.
Upper Silesia is occupied by Poland. Absolutely no historical basis.
Lower Silesia is occupied by Poland. Absolutely no historical basis.
Part of Breslau and Eastern Brandenburg is occupied by Poland. Absolutely no historical basis.
I think there's one or two more as well.
Silesia and Breslau really bothers a lot of East Germans. The regions are 100% German. They were taken From Austria in the 1700's. Before that they were owned by Austria for hundreds of years. Before that they were owned by the Kingdom of Bohemia. Poland has no claim on them.
They're in their control because the Soviets felt like making a nice clean line instead of drawing them where they made sense.
So, now all the sudden your cousin that used to live one town over is in another country. What used to be a nice town in the heartland of Germany is a border town. Germans are starting to forget about the holocaust but remember that they got jipped out of about a fourth of their country.
I've never really run into that outside of Malcolm X and Spike Lee. And Even Spike Lee's not THAT bad. He recognizes that some white people aren't deranged monsters.
Are you referring to the notion of slave reparations perchance?
Posted Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:32 am:
[quote="Kerui";p="728893"][quote="adciv";p="727702"]
As far as Germany and the holocaust, I'd feel guilty about it still too. In fact, one of Germany's PMs recently set into motion taking Hitler's citizenship away...not to deny that he had anything to do with Germany, but to do something to the effect of humiliate him (to the extent a dead man can be humiliated).
This stuff exists.[/quote][/quote]
People didn't learn enough from World War I.
There's a resurgency of German nationalism right now.
Issues: Guilt and unhistorical ownership.
Teenagers in Germany had nothing to do with the holocaust, and they're getting pretty sick of people always trying to make them feel bad for it. I would to. They weren't even born. Hell, most of their parents weren't even born.
The other part is that Germany currently has 16 adminstrative districts. Something akin to a state. They used to have around 25. They lost quite a few states in peace deals following World War I and II.
Alsace-Lorraine went to France. Historical.
Schleswig went to Denmark. Semi-historical.
Danzig went to Poland. Historical.
Ponzan went to Poland. Very Historical.
West Prussia went to Poland. Semi-historical to non-historical.
East Prussia is still occupied by Russia. No historical basis.
East Pommerania is occupied by Poland. No historical basis.
Upper Silesia is occupied by Poland. Absolutely no historical basis.
Lower Silesia is occupied by Poland. Absolutely no historical basis.
Part of Breslau and Eastern Brandenburg is occupied by Poland. Absolutely no historical basis.
I think there's one or two more as well.
Silesia and Breslau really bothers a lot of East Germans. The regions are 100% German. They were taken From Austria in the 1700's. Before that they were owned by Austria for hundreds of years. Before that they were owned by the Kingdom of Bohemia. Poland has no claim on them.
They're in their control because the Soviets felt like making a nice clean line instead of drawing them where they made sense.
So, now all the sudden your cousin that used to live one town over is in another country. What used to be a nice town in the heartland of Germany is a border town. Germans are starting to forget about the holocaust but remember that they got jipped out of about a fourth of their country.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest