Virginia Tech Shooting

[adciv]

Ok, two things.

First, one of the classes didn't sit idly by. They pretty much blockaded the door shut to keep the guy from coming in. I know a guy in a class that did that.

Second, homicide numbers.

US homicide trends
Gun related deaths per 100,000
Breakdown of gun deaths by type and age (note suicide outstrips homicide easily)
CDC Mortality Rate search

[Deacon]

OK, so to break it down, that AP article kinda sucks due to its bias. According to the fourth link, there were 11,671 homicides (any person causing the death of any other person in any context for any reason, legally justified (self-defense) or otherwise) by firearm in the US in 2001, at a rate of 4.09 per 100,000 people. It didn't say what it was for Canada, but that's just a little less than the overall rate of "gun-related deaths" for Canada in 1994 of 4.31 per 100,000 people according to the AP article. And when you look at that first link, it's clear that it's not an all-encompassing, nation-wide problem. Heh, if you were a cynic you would say that Canada doesn't have as many black people, which would take a huge chunk out of the number of incidents in the US.

I finally got the CDC website to spit out results instead of timing out:

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2004, United States
Homicide Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
ICD-10 Codes: X93-X95, *U01.4

Number of
Deaths 	Population 	Crude
Rate
11,624 	293,656,842 	3.96

Note that the rate went down.

And here it is by state, a tediously hand-crafted ranking in order of rate. Note that it's not uniform across the country, and that DC is one the worst when it comes to infringing on the rights of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms. Hmmmm... Of course, it also has the highest concentration of blacks. If you're going to blame law-abiding citizens keeping and bearing arms, maybe the KKK has an equally valid point.

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State          Deaths   Population 	 Rate

Washington DC     137      554,239  24.72
Louisiana         480    4,506,685  10.65
Mississippi       202    2,900,768   6.96
Maryland          386    5,561,332   6.94
Arizona           342    5,739,879   5.96
Alabama           262    4,525,375   5.79
Nevada            123    2,332,898   5.27
South Carolina    220    4,197,892   5.24
Arkansas          141    2,750,000   5.13
California      1,808   35,842,038   5.04
Tennessee         286    5,893,298   4.85
Michigan          488   10,104,206   4.83
North Carolina    411    8,540,468   4.81
Georgia           419    8,918,129   4.70
Illinois          573   12,712,016   4.51
Missouri          257    5,759,532   4.46
New Mexico         81    1,903,006   4.26
Texas             923   22,471,549   4.11
Pennsylvania      504   12,394,471   4.07
Virginia          295    7,481,332   3.94
Florida           647   17,385,430   3.72
Kentucky          152    4,141,835   3.67
Indiana           224    6,226,537   3.60
Oklahoma          124    3,523,546   3.52
Delaware           27      830,069   3.25
Kansas             85    2,733,697   3.11
Ohio              340   11,450,143   2.97
New Jersey        253    8,685,166   2.91
West Virginia      52    1,812,548   2.87
Colorado          131    4,601,821   2.85
New York          516   19,280,727   2.68
Washington        122    6,207,046   1.97
Connecticut        64    3,498,966   1.83
Oregon             65    3,591,363   1.81
Wisconsin          93    5,503,533   1.69
Minnesota          85    5,096,546   1.67
Massachusetts     106    6,407,382   1.65
Nebraska           24    1,747,704   1.37
Iowa               30    2,952,904   1.02
Utah               30    2,420,708   1.24

*The following 11 states had fewer than 20 such homicides, and as such the CDC says to handle with caution: Alaska, Hawaii, Idaho, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Vermont, and Wyoming.

And for those interested in the breakdown by race. Ironically, Asians aren't usually a problem.

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Race     Deaths    Population   Rate

Black     6,201    38,608,953  16.06
Hispanic  2,241    41,337,762   5.42
Native      104     3,122,966   3.33
Asian       200    13,639,912   1.47
White     2,878   196,947,249   1.46

Heh, maybe if we just banned men, that would work...

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Sex     Deaths    Population 	Rate

Males    9,921   144,535,403   6.86
Females  1,703   149,121,439   1.14

[adciv]

Heh, if you were a cynic you would say that Canada doesn't have as many black people, which would take a huge chunk out of the number of incidents in the US.

In reference to this statement from Deacon,

Lacking political correctness does not falsify a valid statistic.

Figured some of you would like this quote I came across when looking for those links before.

[Arminius]

[quote="Bigity";p="733743"]Yet the overall crime rate in Canada is 50 percent more than the U.S, and Canada's homicide rates are climbing while the rates in the US are falling.[/quote]
Crime rate has decreased in both countries since the '90s. The drop in the States can be explained by an increase in police forces. (10% more between 1991 and 2001). The rate of incarceration has increased too, it's 0,7 in US while 0,13 in Canada. For now, I don't think people give a fuck about property crimes anyway. We're talking about violent crimes here. The current US murder rate is 2.5 times that of Canada per capita.

To be honest, I'm not sure the number of guns or any firearms control can do anything for that. We have more weapon per capita in Canada and a very, very weak system of control. The reasons are more complicated than that.

if you were a cynic you would say that Canada doesn't have as many black people, which would take a huge chunk out of the number of incidents in the US.

Good point. But we have our problems with natives instead. The most dangerous city in Canada is not Toronto, Montréal or Vancouver. It's Saskatoon in Saskatchewan (one with the highest % of natives). In Canada, natives count for 3% of the population but they're responsible for 20% of the crimes.

[Bigity]

Aside from rape IIRC, yes the US is 'leading' Canada.

The reasons are many and varied, and could probably be discussed for days.

And no, the crime rate is not falling every year (well, not violent crime anyway), take 2006 for example. Crimes in most categories for both nations are up.

[Deacon]

[quote="Arminius";p="733792"]The drop in the States can be explained by an increase in police forces. (10% more between 1991 and 2001).[/quote]
For reference, I think it's a bad idea to say that such a huge and broad thing as nation-wide crime rates can be explained by a single thing, though a per-capita increase in police force in high-crime areas seems like it would certainly be a factor. Do you have any source of information regarding that kind of thing?

The current US murder rate is 2.5 times that of Canada per capita.

That's a big and generic article you linked to. Can you tell me where you got that information? More to the point, can you tell me what instruments were used in those murders? What would be really nice (but probably very tricky and spotty) would be statistics on the reasons for those murders, be they impromptu crimes of passion, drug deals gone bad, etc.

To be honest, I'm not sure the number of guns or any firearms control can do anything for that. We have more weapon per capita in Canada and a very, very weak system of control. The reasons are more complicated than that.

While I agree with you that leaving law-abiding citizens defenseless is definitely not the answer, according to that article you linked, gun ownership is much higher in the US at 41% of households versus 26% in Canada, though that statistic is nearly 10 years old (1998), and it doesn't cite any source.

[HTRN]

[quote="Mav";p="733686"]Because I do not know of any hand gun on the market today that can hold more than ten bullets. Because I read in the news the shooter only carried two hand guns. Because this means the students inside the building did absolutely nothing while he reloaded his guns. Because even when their escape was cut off, because he chained the doors shut, they still couldn't find the courage to fight. I'm livid over this.[/quote]
Just an aside, virtually all 9mm handguns except for the subcompacts can carry more than ten rounds of ammunition. The pistol he used, A Glock 19 comes from the factory with a 15 round magazine, and can use larger extended mags all the way up to the infamous 33rd mag Glock made for the Glock 18 machine pistol(if you've seen Terminator 3, it's the full auto pistol John Conner fires at the T-X right before going into the bunker).

HOWEVER. At least one survivor of the tragedy described shaking in terror while hearing the perpetrator reload.. WTF?! That should have been an alarm bell, to jump him and club him with whatever was handy. Also, this practice of huddling together while the shooter goes on a rampage is basically suicide - it isn't to make the odds of survival better - it's to make it easier for the police to clear the building when they finally get the nerve up to enter the building, usually after it's all over. Of course, it just makes it easier for the perpetrator to kill you. Oh well, too bad for you. Me personally? If somebody starts shooting, I don't care if Raymond Kelly is there telling me to sit tight - FUCK THAT, I'm leaving! Even prey animals have sense enough to run, not to sit there like animals waiting to be slaughtered. Every human being has a "fight or flight" response. THESE SHOULD BE YOUR TWO OPTIONS, not sitting, waiting to get shot.

As for the legal/illegal deal, this is what I've managed to deduce - Virginia's CCW explicitly allows them to carry on campus HOWEVER, VT's policy is that even if you have one, if they catch you carrying on campus, you're going to be expelled. If you work for them, you lose your job. The law that was proposed and shot down would have forced VT to allow CCW holders to carry on campus without reprisals.

[quote="Deacon";p="733724"]IIRC, the Japanese ruled out putting troops on the ground on the west coast during WWII due to the threat of an armed populace. .[/quote]
While planning the strike on Pearl Harbor, about following up with an invasion of the West Coast. Yamato, the only one among them who had spent any time in America was asked his opinion - his response was "In America, there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass" He also tried desperately to talk them out of starting a war with America, as he knew it was ultimately doomed to failure.. Most of us are familiar with his "awakened a sleeping giant" quote..

[quote="Tower";p="733728"]He actually did own the guns legally, but the rest of your post holds good points.[/quote]
Actually, he purchased them illegally, through legal channels - I don't know how familiar you are with a 4473, but right on the form there is a series of questions, of which any wrong answer would mean a denial of purchase. One of them is a question about psychiatric treatment. Cho was voluntarily instituitionalized, so if he answered honestly, he would not have been able to purchase the gun. The reason he got through the NIC check was because voluntary institionalization does not show up, involuntary ones do.

[quote="Gowerlypuff";p="733738"]It's not the idea of owning guns that gets me. Canadians own guns and there's only 20% of the fatalities by gun per person in Canada than in the US. To be honest, I've no idea why this is.[/quote]

Canada isn't as safe as you think


HTRN

[Spongiform]

[quote="HTRN";p="733810"]
[quote="Tower";p="733728"]He actually did own the guns legally, but the rest of your post holds good points.[/quote]
Actually, he purchased them illegally, through legal channels - I don't know how familiar you are with a 4473, but right on the form there is a series of questions, of which any wrong answer would mean a denial of purchase. One of them is a question about psychiatric treatment. Cho was voluntarily instituitionalized, so if he answered honestly, he would not have been able to purchase the gun. The reason he got through the NIC check was because voluntary institionalization does not show up, involuntary ones do.[/quote]

That is, however, very different from buying a gun with the serial number filed off from some guy in an alley. Cheating on one part of the form makes it illegal, yes, but it puts it somewhere in the middle.

[Arres]

How is it "in the middle"? Maybe it doesn't "seem as bad" as buying one in an alley, but it is still illegal. Apparently, for good reason.

[StruckingFuggle]

Okay, so this has been gnawing at me a while, rikku chan.

apparently you think it's relatively easy to covertly amass a large body count in a school with a knife, in a way that won't raise an alarm.

Now, you also think that guns will make people safer. Which, for guns, I can sorta see. Some whack kicks in the door and opens fire, people will start shooting back. God forbid it turns into a firefight and the police enter into a twitchy situation with weapons drawn to find multiple potential hostiles and make the wrong snap judgement; or god forbid people miss shooting the attacker and/or it turns into a firefight and armed innocent bystanders shoot innocent bystanders ... even if none of that happens, and he just dies in a hail of countergunfire, tragedy averted...

... You also said that while there's a will, there's a way. And logically, if you can knife a bunch of people and not raise an alarm, you can knife a lot of people without raising an armed alarm or giving them a chance to defend themselves.

Their guns, and the guns of those around them, become useless.

If it's so easy to use a knife, won't, then, all these people switch to knives, and thus guns, in this case at least, only change the nature of the threat, rather than do anything to diminish it?

[Deacon]

[quote="StruckingFuggle";p="733853"]apparently you think it's relatively easy to covertly amass a large body count in a school with a knife, in a way that won't raise an alarm.[/quote]
Fuggle, don't be like that. Seriously. The point was made that death dealing can come at the edge of a machete. You were the one who brought that up, actually. And yes, you can kill someone with a knife and have a much greater chance of getting out of there before they notice than you do with a gun. You see, with a gun it goes BANG, and people all throughout the building will be in an instant panic. You walk into a classroom with a machete and start hacking at throats, then it's unlikely that the people on the floor above you, for instance, will instantly know something's up and go diving for the windows. The point is that if you're going to try to die famous by taking other people with you, you can do it, and you will be able to take a decent number of people with you--regardless of whether you have legal access to firearms. And that if any one of the professors or their students had been allowed to carry a weapon of their own, it would hopefully have ended a lot sooner, just like it did with the 2003 attempt talked about earlier in this thread. The point isn't that it would necessarily be more effective to grab a katana and start swinging for the fences.

God forbid it turns into a firefight and the police enter into a twitchy situation with weapons drawn to find multiple potential hostiles and make the wrong snap judgement; or god forbid people miss shooting the attacker and/or it turns into a firefight and armed innocent bystanders shoot innocent bystanders ...

Watch fewer Tarantino movies.

[adciv]

[quote="Deacon";p="733864"] You see, with a gun it goes BANG, and people all throughout the building will be in an instant panic.[/quote]

Depends. I thought the first shot I heard was a dumpster baning into the ground, not a gun going off.

[Deacon]

adciv, you were there at Virginia Tech when this was going down, and heard the shots going off?? Why didn't you tell us this before?!

[Scowdich]

Larry, don't you point that gun at my dad!

Fuggle brings up a good point, but fortunately, it's somewhat moot. People that are likely to have a concealed-carry permit - be they civilians or police - MUST go through training in safety when handling their firearm. Part of this training concerns the idea of an armed confrontation in public: one must always be aware of one's surroundings, particlarly what's behind what you're trying to shoot. After all, you don't want to shoot some killer, only to have the bullet travel through and hit a civilian...this is actually why we have hollow-point bullets. They'll kill an attacker for darn sure, but they won't be able to pass through a wall behind the target, or even kill a person just a short distance behind the target.

Ideally, people who know how to use guns - and can prove it - should definitely be allowed to have them. This is why I practice at the range...it's always good to be prepared.

EDIT: Wow, double-ninja'd. Adciv...my condolences if you knew anyone that was killed. I'm sure we'd all like to hear more.

[adciv]

Deacon, That's the kind of person I am. I was stuck in Randolph for 3 hours during the lock-down from the time I entered (~9:25AM) till 12:30PM. I was in an office facing towards Norris, with the lady who's office it was and a girl. I pretty much played Onslaught for 3 hours straight on my laptop waiting for the lock-down to end.

P.S. Re-read some of what I posted, it might make a bit more sense now.

Fortunately, I didn't know anyone killed. I did know at least one guy who was in Norris when the shooting started. A few people I know, knew some of the deceased, and several friends of friends know some of the deceased.

Posted Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:33 am:

Oh yes. I know of at least one girl who is going back home to S. Korea and I don't think is coming back to VT.