Virginia Tech Shooting

[Martin Blank]

[quote="K^2";p="734648"]I don't dislike empires. There is a time and place for them. Now isn't it. We aren't living in a world of multiple warring states. We live in the world of a handful of super-powers, a war between which would have unimaginable consequences.[/quote]
By your definition, there has never been a time for empires in the entirety of human existence. The world has always been one of multiple warring states. Sometimes they're small and take a few hundred lives before things settle down, and sometimes they cross continents and take the lives of tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions. Go back over the last 6000 years at least and find a point where there haven't been warring states, or significant powers on the verge of war, and then we can examine your conditions again.

It is also impossible to have democracy in a land where people are too afraid to or don't know how to fight to protect themselves and others. That's why mandatory military service will do any country good.

The cost of military training on a per-person basis for 2005 was about $12,000. If there are 8 million 18-19 year-olds in the country, the costs rapidly get out of hand -- $96 billion just for them, not counting salary, or post-boot housing, transportation, equipping, secondary training, etc. I did the numbers once before, and they came out to be nearly half of the current Pentagon budget.

[adciv]

I think you missed something somewhere. Starting salary for a private is ~$25k a year At 8 million, that is 200 billion alone. The DoD's budget is under 500 billion. Together with that I think it's more than half the current Pentagon budget.

[Bigity]

25k? Maybe counting all the benefits as salary.

[adciv]

Woops, my bad. My head math added a one. Should be $15k a year. Still comes out to $120 billion a year alone in salary, though.
source for salary

[K^2]

[quote="Martin Blank";p="734721"][quote="K^2";p="734648"]I don't dislike empires. There is a time and place for them. Now isn't it. We aren't living in a world of multiple warring states. We live in the world of a handful of super-powers, a war between which would have unimaginable consequences.[/quote]
By your definition, there has never been a time for empires in the entirety of human existence. The world has always been one of multiple warring states. Sometimes they're small and take a few hundred lives before things settle down, and sometimes they cross continents and take the lives of tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions. Go back over the last 6000 years at least and find a point where there haven't been warring states, or significant powers on the verge of war, and then we can examine your conditions again.[/quote]
Many small warring states is the perfect environment for an empire. You completely misread what I wrote. Empires become inefficient when there are large powers involved, either as single countries, or as strong unions, like European Union is now.

[quote="Martin Blank";p="734721"]

It is also impossible to have democracy in a land where people are too afraid to or don't know how to fight to protect themselves and others. That's why mandatory military service will do any country good.

The cost of military training on a per-person basis for 2005 was about $12,000. If there are 8 million 18-19 year-olds in the country, the costs rapidly get out of hand -- $96 billion just for them, not counting salary, or post-boot housing, transportation, equipping, secondary training, etc. I did the numbers once before, and they came out to be nearly half of the current Pentagon budget.[/quote]
What else do you need a military budget for except for training and R&D? We are talking about a state developing a defensive force. Yes, you probably also want to keep a good anti-aircraft force and tactical nuclear forces at ready, which will add to the expenses, but it would be a small fraction of what is spent now.

And yes, at the end of the day, it will probably end up being a little more expensive. But again, consider the costs of educating each child from grade one to graduation. And if you throw in college bound students, you add another 20k/year for four years. The cost of military education might sound high, but again, it's only a fraction of total costs of educating a person.

[StruckingFuggle]

Why not just add self defense, etc, to the established education curriculum? Why does it have to be forcing everyone into the military?

[adciv]

And yes, at the end of the day, it will probably end up being a little more expensive. But again, consider the costs of educating each child from grade one to graduation. And if you throw in college bound students, you add another 20k/year for four years. The cost of military education might sound high, but again, it's only a fraction of total costs of educating a person.

Where are you from again?

K-12 is normally paid by the City/County. College is normally paid for by the individual and sometimes partly the state. This would be paid for by the Federal Government and would in no way replace government cost of the other two.

[Arres]

As a voter, and former Marine it would take a LOT of convincing for me to accept a mandatory military force in America. Military service was one of the best decisions I've ever made and I would absolutely reccomend it to anyone who's even considering it. The Corps was an awesome place to grow up and supported me at a time when I needed it in a way I don't think a college ever could.

That being said, I feel there would HAVE to be an alternative for people like fuggle. Frankly, I don't WANT him in my service. He'd be a pain in the ass because he doesn't just not want to be there. He feels its a violation of everything he holds dear. In a mandatory military sort of situation there would have to be some sort of civic service option for the same time period. Community work, in a community not your own sort of thing.

Also, sorry bout that moggy. I knew you were Australian, it just didn't occur to me you wouldn't be using an M16. Bit of a duh moment for me.

[K^2]

[quote="StruckingFuggle";p="734791"]Why not just add self defense, etc, to the established education curriculum? Why does it have to be forcing everyone into the military?[/quote]
I think it would be a great idea to include a martial arts course in the schools' curriculum, but training with real weapons and live ammo just wouldn't work in schools. Schools tend to be much more relaxed environments, and it's hard to make kids take these thing seriously without a serious environment. If you want to train people to use equipment designed strictly to kill other people, you want it to be done in the military environment, where no form of horseplay or foolishness will be tolerated.

K-12 is normally paid by the City/County. College is normally paid for by the individual and sometimes partly the state. This would be paid for by the Federal Government and would in no way replace government cost of the other two.

All of this is essentially payed by the citizens. Whether directly, through local taxes, or through federal taxes.

Oh, and don't most public schools get at least some federal funding anyways?

[adciv]

[quote="K^2";p="734812"]All of this is essentially payed by the citizens. Whether directly, through local taxes, or through federal taxes.[/quote]
Yes, LOCAL taxes. Not FEDERAL. There is a BIG difference in this. The Federal government has very little control over the school system in this country.

Oh, and don't most public schools get at least some federal funding anyways?

National funding for Elementary, Secondary & Vocational education is $38.57 billion. ~43 Million school age children. This provides MAYBE 10% of the school budget.

[StruckingFuggle]

That being said, I feel there would HAVE to be an alternative for people like fuggle. Frankly, I don't WANT him in my service. He'd be a pain in the ass because he doesn't just not want to be there. He feels its a violation of everything he holds dear. In a mandatory military sort of situation there would have to be some sort of civic service option for the same time period. Community work, in a community not your own sort of thing.

And what's wrong with MY community? Actually, I imagine almost you'd want it to be in your own community, so that everyone there, who's just 18-20something, isn't being foisted off to go somewhere else (think of it, year by year, whole generations just shuffled around) ... on the other hand, make those who prefer that option work for their own communities, and foster a civic spirit and community community.

Military service was one of the best decisions I've ever made and I would absolutely reccomend it to anyone who's even considering it.

Yes, and it was your decision, which (I'm not sure if it's clear) is what I'm taking issue with, here. This statement isn't addressed specifically to you, but it's what prompted it, so I quoted it in trying to make it clear.

Something like that is supposed to be a choice. Some people (Arres, obviously) feel that they gain a lot by enlisting - but at the same time, you give a lot up. It's a trade. It's supposed to be a choice. Taking that choice from their hands, and then taking what else service entails, without necessarily giving them anything in return - it seems like a blatant theft, or worse terms, of their human rights.

[Arres]

The reason I said to switch communities is because I personally with no educational background to support me believe that it is positive to get young people out of their communities and see some of the rest of the country. I know it was good for me. It nipped in the bud a tendency towards prejudism against people who spoke spanish as a first language. Part of what the proponents of this sort of thing are trying to do is encourage a national unity of experience. Patriotism. Get out and identify with the rest of the country. Also, if you never have to move out of mommy's house in order to do your "service", it's just state sponsored drinking money.

[K^2]

[quote="adciv";p="734826"]Yes, LOCAL taxes. Not FEDERAL. There is a BIG difference in this. The Federal government has very little control over the school system in this country.[/quote]
It still comes out of pockets of the citizens. I don't see the difference. Or are you talking about it being an issue of who's in charge? I don't have anything against the drafted military force being divided among the states in this case. It would only be a little closer to state militia that way, which is the whole point to begin with.

[adciv]

It's about where all this money is going to come from. You're talking about adding an extra 10%, at a minimum, to the national budget to pay for this. The money has to come from somewhere. I know where I would realocate it from, but I know many who wouldn't like it. (Hint: It's not from the DoD's budget)

[Martin Blank]

[quote="K^2";p="734790"]What else do you need a military budget for except for training and R&D? We are talking about a state developing a defensive force. Yes, you probably also want to keep a good anti-aircraft force and tactical nuclear forces at ready, which will add to the expenses, but it would be a small fraction of what is spent now.[/quote]
Aircraft are expensive. Carriers are expensive. Submarines are expensive. Tanks are expensive. Buildings are expensive. Throw in uniforms, rifles, ammunition, chow... You're looking at something close to a trillion dollar military budget, because all of these costs get added on top of the current military, which includes mostly people older than 19.