Perspectives on our world and our universe, how it works, what is happening, and why it happens. Whether by a hidden hand or natural laws, we come together to hash it out, and perhaps provide a little bit of education and enlightenment for others. This is a place for civil discussion. Please keep it that way.
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Donomni
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by Donomni » Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:53 pm
Maybe you should try it AFTER the baby isn't in his arms, huh?
I don't even think they needed to use the Tazer. The guards were there for what, slightly over a minute? It doesn't even sound like the guy was acting crazy or violent.
I'm not saying the dad had good intentions, as we really don't know at this point, but I do think this is a case of officers and guards being trigger happy without bullets.
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Deacon
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by Deacon » Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:23 pm
So all you have is the story of the guy who was tasered and a comment from some dude at Berkeley about an incident in Houston where a dude was trying to make off with an infant. Hell, that's enough to hang the guards!
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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Blaze
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by Blaze » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:55 am
Well, it does sound like it was a stupid idea, but the info is so lacking. Was the guy threatening the kid at all? Did the guard think he was a danger to the baby or others? Did he threaten the guard? What is the policy regarding tasers and their use at the hospital? Probably stupid, but we need more.
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Binks
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by Binks » Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:08 am
Geez...sorry for the long post, it's late and I'm rambling. Summary - I don't think this was a bad thing, from what I read the taser was less painful to the kid and parent than just about any other option the security guard's really had, and I hope the kid is fine.
Honestly I see no problem here. If you tackle the guy the kid's going to end up worse off than falling, sounds like the taser didn't hurt the kid at all (the guy's complaining more about supposed trauma, which probably means he couldn't find anything the taser had done directly) and what do you expect when guards have to stop some guy who's carrying a newborn? I mean, they have a history of domestic violence on the guy and he's basically got a hostage who can't defend themselves at all and is trying to leave, I see no problem with tasering him.
How do you plan on getting said baby out of his hands before you taser him? Any physical violence is likely to hurt the kid and from the stuff in that article I doubt talking to him would get him to put the kid down, he seemed extremely determined to leave.
Honesty that article sounds like an anti-taser reporter trying to make it sound bad, but doing a horrible job at it. If that article is to be believed the guy was obviously leaving with the kid, even though it was a bad idea for the kid (observation and all that) and he was not going to be talked down. Add to that the domestic violence, the fact that when he was taser'd he admits to having every intention to leave with the kid without permission, and the apparent lack of damage to the kid from the taser and it sounds like your standard case of security guard needs to get guy out of the picture temporarily without hurting innocent 'hostage' too much. I mean, replace taser with another non-lethal weapon in that picture and it's not pretty, that kid would probably have been much worse off.
Now the one part I don't like is how they sprung it on him, didn't threaten to taser him first. However since I wasn't there I don't know how he would have responded to that, would have have tried to run and made the hitting the ground part even worse? Who knows?
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Donomni
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by Donomni » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:05 pm
If the situation calls for it, the Tazer should be used. The problem I have with the situation is that it seemed too soon for me. The guards were there for what looks like less than 2 minutes, then they zapped him. It's like they talked to the guy once and said "Fuck it, let's zap him". Hopefully further info proves that they had to do what they did, as sometimes there are situations that require split-second thinking, but as of right now, I think they could of tried to talk to him a bit longer and try and resolve the whole thing peacefully.
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Bigity
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by Bigity » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:31 pm
It's not unexpected because people can and do walk out of hospitals with babies that don't belong to them. It's a damn serious crime and dealt with accordingly. Better the kid takes a fall than is stolen out of custody.
No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave. -- Calvin Coolidge
Today's liberals wish to disarm us so they can run their evil and oppressive agenda on us. The fight against crime is just a convenient excuse to further their agenda. I don't know about you, but if you hear that Williams' guns have been taken, you'll know Williams is dead. -- Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University
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Deacon
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by Deacon » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:31 pm
Donomni wrote:The guards were there for what looks like less than 2 minutes, then they zapped him.
How many minutes is the correct number of minutes? How long does it take a situation to get ugly enough for you?
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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Kingreaper
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by Kingreaper » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:14 pm
Honestly, there's not enough info here to say, but from these facts:
The video doesn't show the baby hitting it's head
and
The only evidence they give is that the hospital PERFORMED MRIs (something that's likely for liability purposes more than anything else) not what they found
It seems very likely the baby suffered absolutely no significant damage.
Most likely a lot less damage than would have happened had a random man decided he wanted a baby, and taken it.
Still, if it actually went down the way the article says it does, they do seem to have acted a bit hastily. HOWEVER: This is a man who has a history of physically abusing his wife, so the guards pre-existing knowledge of him likely contributed. When an abusive man attempts to abduct a child, which is in the custody of child protective services, there's a significant danger-level for the child in not taking rapid action.
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collegestudent22
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by collegestudent22 » Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:24 am
Donomni wrote:Maybe you should try it AFTER the baby isn't in his arms, huh?
So, what? We let the guy walk out committing a crime because he is holding a baby??!? Hey, I'm going to go rob a bank and the cops can't do anything because I'm taking my baby cousin in with me?? And when they try to arrest me later, I'll just pick the baby up and I'm home free?? As long as I'm holding the baby, I'm practically invincible... how is that any better??
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?
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Donomni
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by Donomni » Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:30 pm
Deacon wrote:How many minutes is the correct number of minutes? How long does it take a situation to get ugly enough for you?
I wouldn't want to have the situation get ugly at all. I just think the guards didn't make much effort to reason with the guy. If they did, then they did choose the best solution to this mess.
collegestudent22 wrote:So, what? We let the guy walk out committing a crime because he is holding a baby??!? Hey, I'm going to go rob a bank and the cops can't do anything because I'm taking my baby cousin in with me?? And when they try to arrest me later, I'll just pick the baby up and I'm home free?? As long as I'm holding the baby, I'm practically invincible... how is that any better??
Did I say let the guy leave? No, I just wished that the man could've been convinced to hand the kid over rather than being hit with an electrical jolt while holding said baby. Is there something wrong with being concerned about a kid's health?
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Deacon
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by Deacon » Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:19 pm
And how do you propose to stop him? Tackle him?
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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somethingstranger
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by somethingstranger » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:04 pm
The guy wasn't going anywhere in the first place, the elevator stopped. Confront him and convince him to let go of the baby? It's not like he was planning on dropping the baby. It's the same with hostage situations. You don't just go in and shoot them. You negotiate.
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adciv
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by adciv » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:06 pm
You negotiate when you believe you have a reasonable chance of getting the hostage(s) out unharmed. This guy wanted to take the baby out of the hospital. He wasn't taking 'no' for an answer.
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Deacon
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by Deacon » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:09 pm
Don't worry, they don't put stairs in hospitals...
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922
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