Income Redistribution

[Deacon]

I'm a software developer. I love writing code.

No you don't. Or maybe you do, but as long as you do it for other people, you'll never be happy.

Right?

If I won the lottery tomorrow (unlikely as I don't play) the only thing I would change would be starting my own company.

See! His point exactly!

[StruckingFuggle]

Find something you like to do. Find a way to get people to pay you to do this. Problem solved. It's not fucking rocket science fuggle, though I could see how someone who's changed their major 5 or 6 times could definitely have problems finding something they enjoy.

Edit: It bears mentioning that I've changed it three times. Not five or six. And what does that matter or mean, anyway?


That said, pretty much. I've spent hours and hours, probably days and days and days total, pounding my head against this problem, and for the life of me, I personally can't think of anything they'd pay me to do that I'd enjoy doing.

And even if it was, it's still horribly tainted, to me, by all the principles of the matter that the part of my life that's my job (that holds hostage the rest of my life, because I need the money to survive, to do things like buy food and shelter and health; let alone make it a life worth keeping) isn't my own life, it's their life, as run managed me, but on their terms and in accordance with their whims. And who you are, personally, doesn't matter. When you sit down to work, who you are becomes meaningless and of no consideration beyond what you bring and what you give them that they want versus how replaceable not you but merely your skill set is.

If you can find something you enjoy doing in the process of selling yourself day by day, that's great. I imagine it makes it somewhat bearable, but I'd have to drink myself into a stupor or start shooting up to ignore the rest of what I'm doing for work to be enjoyable, instead of a resented necessary chore, a punishment to endure before I can afford to retire and do both the things I enjoy, and because I want to do them for nothing more than my own sake, on my terms and in my idiom.

Which isn't to say my future job doesn't have it's perks and I won't wrest some enjoyment out of being called Doctor and being the one that people listen to, but ultimately I'll still resent it because my whole livelyhood comes from living my life for other people in their way. Helping them? That's fine. Dancing to their whims and making my point of working being to please them enough that they throw a paycheck out and it goes my way? Yeah, no.

I went to school and got my degree and I now have a job CREATING software. I get so much satisfaction when I look back and think "I built this from NOTHING."

But wouldn't you get equal satisfaction from it if you could do so without it being your job?
And wouldn't you get more satisfaction from it if you did it on your own terms, for yourself, or for the pure satisfaction and joy of the act of creating, slightly more for creating something that works? For personal mastery of a challenge?



Personally, if I won the lottery tomorrow 90% of it would be invested and the rest would go to stocking a personal library and buying a comfortable chair. Finishing my degree, too, 'cause why not? It'd be fun to be a Doctor by title, and the education would be beneficial for the sake of knowing.. =p

[NorthernComfort]

And even if it was, it's still horribly tainted, to me, by all the principles of the matter that the part of my life that's my job (that holds hostage the rest of my life, because I need the money to survive, to do things like buy food and shelter and health; let alone make it a life worth keeping) isn't my own life, it's their life, as run managed me, but on their terms and in accordance with their whims.

Have you ever considered that perhaps it's your attitude towards work in general that is preventing you from finding a single career path that you could find yourself happily working in?

For personal mastery of a challenge?

Your assumption that you cannot achieve personal mastery of a challenge at work is completely incorrect, and seems to be the crux of the matter. Seriously, go read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

[StruckingFuggle]

Northern Comfort, I'll get back to you. I just wanted to add one more thing while I'm thinking about it and before I run off, during which time I'll probably forget.

Raptor, so you're a programmer. You write code. But who truly owns your code? When you produce something, is it yours? Or is it theirs? Who profits from it? If it sells exceptionally well, do you make any extra money? If you want to use it for something on your own, even outside the company, or sell the fruits of your labor to someone else, can you? Or do they own what you make and are so proud to have created?

[Deacon]

I personally can't think of anything they'd pay me to do that I'd enjoy doing.

Then either you're a singularly miserable human being, or you haven't really tried very hard. In the end, if the former is true, then you're going to have to suck it up and do something that's not your ultimate ideal in order to fund your hobbies. The reality is that while the former may well be true, the latter is certainly true.

And even if it was, it's still horribly tainted, to me, by all the principles of the matter that the part of my life that's my job (that holds hostage the rest of my life, because I need the money to survive, to do things like buy food and shelter and health; let alone make it a life worth keeping) isn't my own life, it's their life, as run managed me, but on their terms and in accordance with their whims.

I don't even know how to respond to this. Your life is your own. To survive, you can either choose to go out into the wilderness and survive on your wits alone, or you can operate within society and choose to provide a product or service that other people want. A job is purely providing a service that someone else is willing to pay for. You get to choose what service(s) you offer as well as the rate at which you're willing to offer it, whether as an individual to various clients (i.e. a contractor or consultant) or as an employee to an employer. The value of the particular service you offer depends on a great many factors, of course, which may well shape which service(s) you choose to offer. You're going to be at work only about 8 or 9 hours out of the day, normally, and the rest of your time is your own to do with as you see fit, whether it's earning more money or lying on your floor trying to find pictures in the texture of your ceiling. And even during that time you spend doing your job as an employee at an office, your life is still your own. That does not mean that you're absolved of the physical, mental, and emotional needs that you as an organism need to survive and flourish, but you still, for instance, choose whether the quality of your service is such that your clients (in most cases meaning your employer) approves.

And who you are, personally, doesn't matter. When you sit down to work, who you are becomes meaningless and of no consideration beyond what you bring and what you give them that they want versus how replaceable not you but merely your skill set is.

This is a very heavily spun, very embittered take on the matter, the kind of thing that's written primarily by people whose experience in the matter is limited to works of fiction, perhaps with the addition of the rantings of some angry ideologue. Even Eeyore couldn't come up with that. Of course, this entire view is predicated on the assumption that life both can and should be bliss, and that bliss is found elsewhere, again an indication of someone whose perspective needs a little acquainting with the real world. Go ask some impalas on the serengeti how blissful and effortless their life is. You sound like a wealthy suburbanite goth freshman whose morose, immature, and shallow musings on pain and death and the emptiness of life and simultaneously amusing and exasperating to the adults in their life.

If you can find something you enjoy doing in the process of selling yourself day by day, that's great. I imagine it makes it somewhat bearable, but I'd have to drink myself into a stupor or start shooting up to ignore the rest of what I'm doing for work to be enjoyable, instead of a resented necessary chore, a punishment to endure before I can afford to retire and do both the things I enjoy, and because I want to do them for nothing more than my own sake, on my terms and in my idiom.

Give me utopia or give me death? You want a library full of books and a comfortable chair, right? Who do you think wrote those books? Who built those shelves? Who chopped down the trees, cut the wood, assembled the frame, wove the fabric, and upholstered that chair? You want to finish your degree, right? What about the people who built the school, the professors who teach you, the people who wrote the textbooks, the people who did the research to arrive at the knowledge in those textbooks, the people who produced the ink for those textbooks, the people who have to organize and run the school, the receptionists who answer your calls, the advisers who help you put together your schedule, the janitors who have to take out your trash while you're there? For fuck's sake, man, you seriously need a wake-up call. You are someone whose thoughts of others is limited to the starry-eyed political idealism of pampered youth whose over-privileged world has revolved around themselves for so long they'd be dizzy and fall over if they stopped and took a real look at the world around them.

Raptor, so you're a programmer. You write code. But who truly owns your code? When you produce something, is it yours? Or is it theirs? Who profits from it? If it sells exceptionally well, do you make any extra money? If you want to use it for something on your own, even outside the company, or sell the fruits of your labor to someone else, can you? Or do they own what you make and are so proud to have created?

This kind of questioning only confirms everything I've said above. But in addition it also shows how little experience you have in the business world, especially as to negotiating compensation packages and understanding the value of the product or service you offer. You might as well come down hard on a janitor asking whether they get paid by the pound of trash they empty or something.

[AlexanderBarca]

Wow...wish I didn't arrive at this one so late. I have to say I'm a little shocked at the belief structure you've laid out here, Fuggle. Although Deacon is being a little over the top (go figure), I actually agree with his sentiments. I'm going to try a different route here with explaining this.

Fuggle, I would not say that all work is rewarding, at least not the work itself. Everybody who has ever worked food service knows that's complete bollocks. Quite often, especially with low-end just-to-get-by jobs, you get treated like crap by people. Often enough, you don't even produce something.

However, you do get something out of the experience itself. There is something liberating about earning your own money, no matter what you do. When you spend that money, you have the satisfaction of knowing that you worked hard for it, that it is yours, and that whatever you get with it is a reward for that work (YES, even if what you get is the food or the shelter that is necessary to live. I'm not saying it SHOULD be that way, but it is...). Plus, working a shit job teaches you humility (which is good for everyone), builds your ability to interact with others (my jobs at cafes, especially the last one, significantly raised my self-confidence in meeting and talking to new people), and really just gives you an experience of a 'hard time' (which builds character. It allows you to say, 'well, you know, things are bad now, but I remember when I was living in Philly and had 20 bucks to survive for a week. Things aren't THAT bad, so I know I can make it through this).

In my case, my university has looked at my achievements in undergraduate school and has chosen me from among a large pool of people to study at their institution, under a stipend. I earned that money, through surviving the last 4 years both academically and physically. I feel a great sense of pride that this school would decide to honor me this way. Next year they will pay me in exchange for me teaching some of their classes.

But the thing is, I LOVE teaching, and would GLADLY do it for free if I could. The fact that i will receive money, which I need to live, is a perk. My salary once I become a professor will ALSO be a perk in this way, because I'll be getting paid to do something that I love.

Because I don't view this as being a 'slave' to other people or 'producing' for the sake of others and not myself. Maybe this is where you are going wrong. Despite my dislike for Deacon's habit leaping to moral judgments, I think he's right: You DO sound as though you're in a very selfish mindset. Are you existentialist? (Seriously?). There is a difference between saying 'I work and I do these things 'for the good of the society' (especially if you DO hate your job, but only do it because it pays well or so that you can be viewed as 'successful', that's wrong on a lot of levels) and saying 'I work and I do these things for others'.

I am a utilitarian who ascribes to a secular humanistic moral test. Basically, my philosophy is: 'One should do that which does the most amount of good for the most people.' When I follow this philosophy, it makes me feel good. I have chosen a profession where I believe that I can do this the best while still enjoying my work and my life. I'm not doing it for the people who pay me. I'm doing it for the people who I'm actually providing something to. (though, at a university, these are generally the same people...).

So, I just can't see where you're coming from on this. Yes, it sucks to be in a job that you hate selling your labour to someone. No, I don't believe anyone should have to do that. But saying, in essence, that you would be unhappy in any job where you did anything for anybody other than yourself? I really don't think you can believe in that and believe in a good, moral, and just society.

[Deacon]

Well, despite his attempts to dampen my day, I actually am quite surprised that I do find myself agreeing with, of all people, AlexanderBarca.

[collegestudent22]

Well, you could be agreeing with Fuggle..... Nah, that doesn't happen.

[Deacon]

It does, though more often the other way around, it seems. I have no hard data to back that up.

[raptor9k]

Raptor, so you're a programmer. You write code. But who truly owns your code? When you produce something, is it yours? Or is it theirs? Who profits from it? If it sells exceptionally well, do you make any extra money? If you want to use it for something on your own, even outside the company, or sell the fruits of your labor to someone else, can you? Or do they own what you make and are so proud to have created?

My employer owns the copyright to any code I write for my employer. However, it's all in my head and I could easily write it again. Any freelance work I do is in a language other than Delphi to avoid any unsavory issues of copyright infringement. Yes, we get bonuses if our products sell particularly well. In addition to bonuses we also get chances to do things on our own time at contractor pay rates. Selling our products on my own would be a conflict of interest and lead to my dismissal. It doesn't matter who owns it. I get paid the amount my employer and I negotiated. That's the end of the transaction. The fact that I created a piece of software still exists and gives me a huge sense of accomplishment when we roll out the next module.

[adciv]

This Article could not better show why high taxes are a bad thing.

[Deacon]

While biased hard in the system's favor, it is indeed a shining example of what happens when communism operates behind a thin veil of socialist-bent capitalism. I've done business with a number of people from Denmark, and while it's admittedly just a handful, they're all exasperated by the incredibly high taxes. It's not limited to income tax, but rather everything is taxed straight to hell and back, especially when it comes to cars and real estate. It's honestly incomprehensible to me as to how the Danish people could be so short-sighted and selfish to let it get that way.