Texas Man shoots 2 thiefs while on the phone with 911

[Martin Blank]

if you don't want or intend to shoot them then what use is the threat to get them to leave?

I do not want to shoot the intruder(s).

I do not intend to shoot the intruder(s), unless a threatening move is made. If they make a move to run in any way that may be towards me -- and in my current domicile, the front door is at the base of the stairs, stairs on which I am likely to be, and therefore running for the door may be running for the stairs -- then the they risk me pulling the trigger. My training is very simple: two in the chest, and if a threat remains, one in the head. I do not shoot to wound. I do not shoot to incapacitate. I shoot to kill, because if I do not, I risk injury, maiming, or death, and I would prefer to not go down without a fight.

That said, there will be one verbal warning, and that warning will be something that virtually everyone in this country, no matter what language they speak, will know and understand: "FREEZE." If they move, they die. If they stop, they get a brief explanation. "Do not move. I am armed and prepared to shoot. The police have been called, and they are on the way." I expect that all talking on my part will cease at this point, pending arrival of police, some manner of escape by the intruder(s), or me shooting. Hopefully, I will have at least been able to dial 911 and set the phone down so that the operator can hear and dispatch as required.

[Gundampilotspaz]

Sad, sad necro...

Also, I'm sure you've committed at least one crime in your lifetime, so when should I kill you?

I'm sure I've jay-walked once or twice. That hardly is a crime that harmed anyone. I can honestly say I've never broken the law in a way that harmed someone, and really those are the only actions that should be deemed "illegal". What Joe Horn did was to protect his neighbors from harm, the harm took the form of having their property stolen. I would feel safe with him as my neighbor.

[Martin Blank]

This week, a grand jury declined to indict Joe Horn in the events of last November. Horn, who has in the last couple of days made several television appearances about it, regrets what happened, has said that he's not a hero, and doesn't want anyone to have to go through what he did in and has since those few seconds that were heard around the world.

[Thorsman]

That's just disgusting - not only that Joe Horn should be considered any kind of criminal but also that he'd talk about being ashamed instead of proud of his actions. I'm certainly proud of what he did for his neighbor, even if he no longer is.

[Hirschof]

I would feel safe with him as my neighbor.

Unless you locked yourself out at night and were tying to get back in through a window...

[Thorsman]

All you'd have to yell out is, "Don't shoot, Joe! Don't shoot! It's me, (insert your name here), I just locked myself out, that's all!"

[Thorsman]

This is true, Lucksi. Joe Horn could likely see his enemies charging toward him. That's the whole thing: Joe did what any decent neighbor would do, and now he's paying the price for it.

[Martin Blank]

How do you shoot someone in the back when he is rushing you?

It wasn't quite that simple. Ortiz was hit in the back, possibly while attempting to flee. Torres was hit in the upper left chest and back area, consistent with Horn's description of Torres approaching and then turning when he aimed at him. Pasadena police witnesses confirmed that the suspects crossed onto Horn's property.

Texas law allows for using deadly force on a fleeing suspect. Texas Penal Code § 9.42 states, in part, "A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property ... when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary ... to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property." Texas Penal Code § 9.43 applies this to protecting the property of a third party if "the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property."

There is the technicality that suggests that the afternoon shooting was questionable, since the law allows shooting a fleeing suspect during the night, which came later than the roughly 2pm shooting (if the sources I've found are correct on the time). However, the fact that they crossed into Horn's property, and in one instance ran towards him (as testified to by the on-scene detective, who showed up just as the shooting started), probably presented to Horn the impression of an imminent threat to his safety, justifying the shooting.

[Martin Blank]

It would be interesting to learn the laws covering justified homicide in your country. I believe that (almost?) all countries allow for a person to defend himself and his family when under threat or perceived threat. It's one of the most basic instincts we have. The degree to which it is allowed, though, differs, as some nations do not allow the use of force to protect property.

[Deacon]

I would feel safe with him as my neighbor.

Unless you locked yourself out at night and were tying to get back in through a window...

In which case he'll call 9-1-1 like he did in this case? Yeah, that's totally unsafe.

The amount of force you use must be relative to the threat. Not only that, you have to use the lowest amount of force necessary to stop an attack. So yes, this includes using deadly force, but only if it´s the only means to stop the attack. Shooting an old guy who hits you with a cane is not ok, while hitting/subduing him is. Just as a stupid example of what I mean.

You are a horrible person with terrible judgment and should be sent to jail for what you did to that old man. All you had to do was put your hands up to block the cane. At the very worst all you had to do was take the cane away. It's prison time for you, you sick jerk.

As for what you wrote about what you would do, i.e, going down to confront them, blocking only means of escape, shooting them if they move whether or not they are armed (or did I misread that?), that is not self defense according to our law. You are provoking your self defense and as such are wide open to prosecution yourself.

I will never, ever live in Germany.

[Martin Blank]

Those objects according to our law books are body(physical harm), your life, freedom, honor (not making this one up) and property.

Protecting honor is an old way of referring to defense against rape, so it may be a euphemism about that, whether or not actual violence is involved.

The amount of force you use must be relative to the threat. Not only that, you have to use the lowest amount of force necessary to stop an attack.

Most states in the US have this, but there are case law allowances for what's available. If someone comes at me with a pipe, for example, and all I have is a gun, then firing the gun to protect myself is probably legal as my alternative leaves me at a severe disadvantage.

As for what you wrote about what you would do, i.e, going down to confront them, blocking only means of escape, shooting them if they move whether or not they are armed (or did I misread that?), that is not self defense according to our law.

My apartment is constructed such that the front door is right at the base of the stairs. If he runs in the direction of that meeting point, I then have to figure out whether he's trying to escape or trying to rush me. I'm picking the safer of the two for me.

Right now, self defense does not cover you if you act in defense of your family (probably weird for you)

That really doesn't make sense to me, and I'm not sure that any jury in Europe would fault someone for protecting his or her children or spouse through the use of deadly force.

[StruckingFuggle]

You are a horrible person with terrible judgment and should be sent to jail for what you did to that old man. All you had to do was put your hands up to block the cane. At the very worst all you had to do was take the cane away. It's prison time for you, you sick jerk.

Well sure. An old person with a cane can't do serious damage, remember? And if they're no threat, then it's not even self-defense to fight back, let alone shoot them.

[Martin Blank]

No, I can't leave. That puts me in danger. It's a roughly 12-foot (4m) drop to the pavement from the lowest window, and my shoes may well be downstairs; one drops me on a flimsy corrugated roof over the patio, and the other drops me in the exit path of the burglar. If I remain upstairs in my room, I give up withdrawal options and end up boxed in with nowhere to go. I further hand the tactical advantage to the intruder, who is not likely to be expecting a confrontation.

These are the kinds of things that I think about when I move into a new place. Everyone should, whether they plan to fight or flee. Know your options, and what's realistic.