The 2008 NFL Playoffs

[Deacon]

Actually, Cubans aren't playing Major League Baseball, because by the time they start doing that they've fled the country.

What?? Why would they flee America?! I do not understand you. Though it sounds like you've never heard of Rafael Palmeiro or Jose Contreras, etc.

And many of the players on the Japanese team that won the World Baseball Classic (over Cuba) played in the Japanese leagues at the time (and most still do, though a few have come over here to cash in on massive paydays).

And you believe that teams from that league compete at the same level (or higher) as the MLB?

There was once a time you could say that all the world's best ballplayers were in the Major Leagues. Today is not that time.

That's almost Fugglian how deeply you're reaching for semantics on that one, and all it takes is one professional-level player to not play in the MLB to make your ultimate blanket statement true. It's perfectly natural and expect that, of the other 6.3 billion people in the world outside the US, some people are going to end up with athletic talent, but your statement makes vast and sweeping implications that are not only inaccurate but disingenuous. And that, sir, is what's really got my rankles ruffled, here. If you were just an ignorant goofus spouting off at the mouth, that's one thing, but you're either very good at lying about yourself or are indeed well informed enough to know that what you're saying is unsupportable bollocks.

The NBA pretty much has all the best basketball players in the world.

Thank you for at least admitting you were wrong on that one.

In hockey, some players are just sick of the NHL. After the lockout, the missed season, and the fact that many of the league's best are from Eastern Europe, players are more often considering quitting the NHL and going home to play in leagues in Europe.

You just go ahead and let me know when the NHL becomes second rate. This business about players "considering" leaving the NHL about some lockout and such is ridiculous. They've had, what, 4? 5 years, now, to leave if they wanted to? And that's a helluva far cry from the NHL not having the best hockey players in the world.

[mikehendo]

Let's start with "there's no more NFL Europe." But you're right in that it was a subsidiary of the NFL. Arena Football, while not affiliated with the NFL, has many ties to the league through ex-players and players' family. (Guys like Jon Gruden's brother act as scouts of sorts.)

The problem is that Arena League Football is only vaguely football. Far as I and most people are concerned, the only real "minor league" for the NFL is the NCAA.

Also, Arena League Football has its own minor league!

Sorry, I didn't watch either. thanks for the info.

[ampersand]

Fugglian? Is that even a word?

[The Cid]

What?? Why would they flee America?! I do not understand you. Though it sounds like you've never heard of Rafael Palmeiro or Jose Contreras, etc.

This is why I shouldn't argue with you. You misquote me and then misunderstand me.

The Cuban players on the Cuban national team in the World Baseball Classic don't play in the majors, they play in Cuba! Once they play in the majors they can no longer play for the national team. There was no Contreras. No Palmeiro. Add onto that the fact that most of the Japanese team that won the competition play their pro ball in Japan to this day, and you're really onto something.

And you believe that teams from that league compete at the same level (or higher) as the MLB?

Now when did I EVER say that? I've never implied that these leagues aren't the highest level of competition, only that they do not have a monopoly on the world's talent in these sports. The underlying point was that football is not played abroad. But for the record, I believe the high end of the Japanese pro leagues is as good as the low end of ours. I think their best could take, for example, the San Francisco Giants in a seven game series. Could they beat playoff teams, like the Phillies, Red Sox, Yankees or Rockies? Probably not, but they're not that far off.

I'm not trying to say we don't have the best leagues. I'm pointing out that, unlike in football, other sports have growing international followings and leagues that are starting to, on some level, compete for athletes. And it's so far off from my original point that I can't believe we're still on it.

[Deacon]

The Cuban players on the Cuban national team in the World Baseball Classic don't play in the majors, they play in Cuba! Once they play in the majors they can no longer play for the national team. There was no Contreras. No Palmeiro.

Yeah, because they're playing Major League Baseball. Who said anything about the individual members of the Cuban national team? The point is that the best and the brightest play in America.

Add onto that the fact that most of the Japanese team that won the competition play their pro ball in Japan to this day, and you're really onto something.

Yeah, you are on something, and apparently some good shit, whatever it is. Those Japanese leagues did not compete against the MLB teams, just as the various olympic teams with different rules didn't play NBA teams. Just as the various olympic teams didn't play NHL teams. I'd like to see the Argentinian team play the Spurs last year after they won the Championship, in an NBA gym with NBA rules. The Argentinian team would be short a certain Ginobili and Oberto and would be flattened--even if neither team got those players. In fact, take all those international teams, put them in the NBA, and they couldn't compete--not the least of which is because their best players are playing in the NBA. Same with the various national baseball and hockey teams.

And you believe that teams from that league compete at the same level (or higher) as the MLB?

Now when did I EVER say that?

When you said the major leagues no longer have the best talent in the world and spun harrowing tales of how all these other countries beat the US, as though that were somehow relevant.

I'm not trying to say we don't have the best leagues. I'm pointing out that, unlike in football, other sports have growing international followings and leagues that are starting to, on some level, compete for athletes. And it's so far off from my original point that I can't believe we're still on it.

Your original point was that the NFL can get such high prices because they have no competition, while the NBA, MLB, and the NHL all have competition and must therefore lower prices, which is ludicrous. Even if you were to backpedal and say you just meant that they charge lower prices because the quality of talent in those leagues has decreased because other leagues exist in the world outside the US, it's ludicrous. All three of them have the highest talent level in the world, and the trend is for that talent level to increase continually, year after year. You said, "It's competition for players, and it drives down the perceived quality of a league." It's BS. How many people who go to baseball games are not only aware that some sort of league may exist in Korea but actually feel that the quality of the game has dropped? No, it's BS. You said, "The US doesn't hold the highest recognized international championship in any of...NBA, MLB or NHL." Also BS. The NBA Championship, the World Series, and the Stanley Cup are all the highest recognized championships in their respective sports no matter who you ask or WHERE IN THE WORLD you ask it. And yes, contrary to your assertions, the teams are an amalgam of the best playing and coaching talent from around the world. And if you try to argue that you were talking about the olympics or whatever that does NOT compare those leagues to any others, then you've gone from dumb to disingenuous.

[The Cid]

Your original point was that the NFL can get such high prices because they have no competition, while the NBA, MLB, and the NHL all have competition and must therefore lower prices, which is ludicrous.

It was nothing of the sort. You just take me out of context for the sake of your own arguments. The "competition" argument was HARDLY A PART OF MY POST. It was one point in a crowd of MANY.

But instead of recognizing that, you had to take it--and everything I said in defense of the quote you took--out of context.

When you said the major leagues no longer have the best talent in the world and spun harrowing tales of how all these other countries beat the US, as though that were somehow relevant.

I said they no longer have all of the best talent in the world.

I stand by that statement. And I'm tired of arguing on what is, and always was, completely tangent to the "point" I was making (namely that I, personally, have grown tired of the way the NFL is run.)

[Deacon]

Your original point was that the NFL can get such high prices because they have no competition, while the NBA, MLB, and the NHL all have competition and must therefore lower prices, which is ludicrous.

It was nothing of the sort. You just take me out of context for the sake of your own arguments. The "competition" argument was HARDLY A PART OF MY POST. It was one point in a crowd of MANY.

*presses temples and breathes deeply and steadily*

When someone complained about parking prices and such, you follow up with yeah, they have no competition while in comparison the MLB and NBA and NHL do and no longer have all the best players in at least a full half of the post (the rest of which goes on to bash the NFL about random things). It may have been one point in a crowd of two (really just a supporting argument that the NFL sucks), but it's crap, and you need to stop defending it. Even if we abandon the money aspect of it, you said "It's competition for players, and it drives down the perceived quality of a league" which is, again, complete crap, regardless of the fact that IT'S PRIMARILY THOSE LEAGUES WHO ARE CREATING AND ENCOURAGING THIS ALLEGED "COMPETITION". At least admit when you're wrong. It makes the rest of the shit you say sound less crazy.

I said they no longer have all of the best talent in the world.

I stand by that statement.

I'm waiting to hear Fuggle's endorsed you as a presidential candidate.

[The Cid]

You've successfully derailed this thread, thanks to a misquoting and an utter failure to understand me. I'm going back to talking about the NFL. You just keep doing what you're doing. Whatever that is.

They know full well that they are the only league for the world's best American Football players.

This. This fact is what you've been trying to refute. At no point did I ever say that any international hockey, baseball or basketball league was superior to the NHL, MLB or NBA. You seem to think I did, but I never did. What they DO have in those leagues are unique styles of play, and emerging stars that play in these unique styles. I'll explain. Bear with me, and stop misquoting me:

-Do I need to point out the ways in which Japanese and Latin baseball have changed the majors in the past decade? It's expanded scouting, and it's brought in players like Ichiro Suzuki, who is a completely unique character in a game that's existed for over a century. The Dominican Republic has brought us some prolific sluggers. Japan is quickly becoming a speed and pitching pipeline. And, yes, the quality of leagues in these countries is on the rise, to the point that Japanese professional ball is just barely below the Majors in quality.

-You know international basketball as well as any NBA fan, because your team is one of the biggest beneficiaries of it. International influence--which, yes, was completely sparked by the NBA itself--has changed the way the game is played. Guys who in the "old" NBA would be role players to be used off the bench have become crucial starters.

-The fall of the Soviet Union changed the NHL. Hard to argue against that. And as Eastern Europe begins to rebuild, as wealth comes back to that area, their professional hockey leagues will continue to pick up steam. Not hard to see that the NHL is falling on hard times, so yes, it could be possible within a decade that the NHL isn't the premier source of hockey talent in the world.

But the bigger point this makes is that international "competition" adds a new dimension to the game and changes much about it. Football doesn't have that, through no real fault of its own (though they don't really try all that hard), and it shows. The only influence on pro ball is college ball. Since there's no option offense in the pros, there really aren't that many styles of play in the NFL. (You have your smashmouth running teams, your West Coast teams and your big passing teams. On defense there's "blitz," there's "the Cover Two," and there's "you three guys hang out with Randy Moss, we'll deal with the rest of the Patriots.") Part of the reason--not the whole reason, but part of it--for all of this is that the same talent comes out of the same places every year.

You're still trying to refute a point I'm not even sure I ever made. You might do well to read my posts in full before we waste our time like this.

I'm waiting to hear Fuggle's endorsed you as a presidential candidate.

Edit: Keep your dirty fuckin' politics out of my football.

[Deacon]

How is it that you just don't GET that? I understand you don't get a laugh out of the humor, but still. Can't just leave "well enough" alone, can you? No, of course not.

What? What humor? Please point out the joke. I must've missed it. Seriously.

They know full well that they are the only league for the world's best American Football players.

This was still the "point" you're trying to refute. And you still haven't done it.

No, I never refuted that point. Why would I? It's accurate.

So it's okay that their officials suck and are all-too-often biased toward the home team.

Colts-Chargers this year for example: Indy had countless calls go their way in that game. And the Giants were visiting Dallas in the divisional round, but I seem to recall you being unhappy with the refs in that game.

This is an example of the random things I referred to earlier and otherwise ignored. The home team generally gets the call in pretty much any sport. I cannot remember complaining about the refs in the Cowboys/Giants game. Remind me if it turns out you're actually right.

It's okay that they don't do much of anything for retired players suffering long-term problems from their NFL days.

...Does this not happen anymore, or am I missing something? Because I've seen quite a few reports of NFL legends living under underpasses and suffering severe health problems.

What exactly are you talking about? This is yet another one of the random things, something nobody's heard about or cares about. Please, provide some sources/examples and some sort of logic where the NFL is responsible for anyone's retirement plan. Mike Tyson's poor as hell. Does the NABC owe him money or free health care or something? Does MC Hammer's old record label owe him money or whatever? What the hell are you talking about?

It's okay that they look the other way on steroids and Human Growth Hormone.

Go after this point. Go on. I dare you. Funny how none of this made it into your posts.

What? I don't understand. What do you want from me or expect me to do or say? You act like this is some sort of pet issue of mine, while not only is it not and never has been such a thing, but it's something few fans think about, much less actually care about.

It's okay that they make fans pay out the ass for preseason games, much less regular season and playoff games. It's okay that some fanbases pour more money into the league than others, but the revenue is shared evenly and the salary cap makes even the most popular players look like rentals.

Honestly, I expected you to tear this apart if anything.

Why? What the hell do I care? It would take an essay to point out all the things wrong with what you're saying if I thought it was wrong. The reality is I don't know what you're trying to say, exactly, much less whether it's accurate or not, and because nobody really cares, it's not something into which I wish to invest much time. What do I know about revenue sharing and salary caps helping or hurting a league? If it were terrible, wouldn't the owners and the players union fight to change it? Is it really a bad thing? Do we want a Yankees-style bid to buy championships by spending hundreds of millions of dollars on player payrolls? More to the point, why should I care about what you have to say on the matter?

It's okay that they have a severe discipline problem popping up throughout the league. It's all okay, because football's just so entertaining.

But instead of going after me for any of the opinions I listed, you're going after me over the fact I began with.

Ah, so you haven't learned anything. I thought you'd at least admit to knowing better by now.

You're trying to refute a fact by saying that I'm overestimating foreign basketball and baseball leagues, when their mere existence proves the "point" I was making.

Your facts are opinions and assumptions. Yes, it's a fact that the NFL is the only professional gridiron league (that I know of, at least). Yes, it's a fact that MLB and the NBA are trying to grow their sports internationally. No, it is NOT a fact that them doing so results in a drop in quality, nor that people perceive it as such. It is explicitly CONTRARY to fact that these venues are seen as COMPETITION to the NBA, for instance, something to be striven against and dominated, as you yourself pointed out when you noted that "the NBA's commissioner wants to continue to cultivate that international game." (em)

Sheesh. I thought I was wasting my time making these points. I never realized I'd waste so much more defending them.

I know, right? When you spout off at the mouth, who'd've thought you'd be called on to defend your statements?

[mikehendo]

Fugglian? Is that even a word?

if you speak deaconese it is..
if i understand correctly it has two meanings
1) of or having to do with strucking fuggle
2) an insult that deacon likes to throw around when he doesn't follow an argument or thinks that somone isnt making a point.

[Deacon]

Whoa, WTF?? You went back and changed your ENTIRE post?? Fine...

You've successfully derailed this thread, thanks to a misquoting and an utter failure to understand me. I'm going back to talking about the NFL. You just keep doing what you're doing. Whatever that is.

You're so very full of shit that's amazing you haven't exploded messily yet. And bonus points for immediately going into baseball and basketball and hockey and--of all things--politics.

-Do I need to point out the ways in which Japanese and Latin baseball have changed the majors in the past decade?

No. Why would you? The fact is that they're changing MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL which is played where? IN THE US. You didn't say anything about international influences until after the fact, after it was pointed out how wrong you were about your actual points, grousing about "competition" from international leagues and later clarifying how growing the sports in the rest of the world "drives down the perceived quality of a league." Whether you're talking about the NBA, the NHL, or MLB, you were wrong then and remain so now.

But the bigger point this makes is that international "competition" adds a new dimension to the game and changes much about it. Football doesn't have that, through no real fault of its own (though they don't really try all that hard), and it shows.

You said nothing about the NFL becoming stagnate or whatever it is you're now trying to infer. Nor is it something anyone notices or cares about.

You might do well to read my posts in full before we waste our time like this.

I have a place you might consider placing your suggestion, the same place from which your crap spills.

I'm waiting to hear Fuggle's endorsed you as a presidential candidate.

Edit: Keep your dirty fuckin' politics out of my football.

Hahahahahahaha.... As if that actually had anything to do with politics and wasn't in reality a commentary on the politician-like depths of to which you'd sink to morph your arguments and spin your previous comments and accuse your opponent of misquoting and outright deny that you said what you said and claim that people simply didn't understand that you didn't actually mean what you said and they're assholes for failing to get that.

[The Cid]

Can we get back to the NFL? There are only so many times I can go in this circle.

Nor is it something anyone notices or cares about.

The fact that the general public doesn't "care" doesn't exactly make me go "hey, then I shouldn't care EITHER! Why should I care that the league never changes one bit, that players bulk themselves up to unnatural proportions and that the league throws them aside when they don't make the league any money anymore. Nobody else does! So obviously there's no reason for me to ever voice my opinion, because people in this world might disagree!" (And by the way, you seem to think "everybody" = "what you have seen and heard." The steroid argument DOES pop up in football circles, and people DO actually care about the oft-concussed NFL player denied health benefits by his former league. You may never have heard them, but I'm going to go ahead and guess that you don't pay that kind of attention.)

I've said what I needed to say on that issue. I'm done with it. Now I'm going back to talking about the NFL, because this is absolutely ridiculous.

What? What humor? Please point out the joke. I must've missed it. Seriously.

This is growing thin, too. One of these days you're going to try and make a point that I don't even exist--since my "points" aren't "points" and my jokes don't exist because you don't get them. Man. You don't like me. I get it. Can we get OFF that?

Oh, and in case anyone is still actually reading this thread: the Giants can beat the Patriots, but my problem with New York is that they abandon their running game late in games for no good reason. If they do that against the Pats, they will lose and lose badly.

[Deacon]

Why should I care that the league never changes one bit, that players bulk themselves up to unnatural proportions and that the league throws them aside when they don't make the league any money anymore. Nobody else does! So obviously there's no reason for me to ever voice my opinion, because people in this world might disagree!

What are you talking about? Do strip clubs owe their dancers money to pay for therapy after they retire? For surgery to remove busted silicone implants? As it is now they dance and the clubs throw them aside when they don't make the clubs any money anymore. Every other company in the world squeezes as much as they can get out of their employees and forget about them the moment they leave. Yet you don't complain about that. The difference being you make a shitload more money in the NFL than the average employee. If you DO care, you should say WHY. Nobody cares because they disagree it's the employers responsibility to care for the employee after the employee has left or been fired.

people DO actually care about the oft-concussed NFL player denied health benefits by his former league.

It's a good thing they've been paid such exorbitant salaries so they can pay for health care. It sure is shocking that a sport like football might result in concussions.

What? What humor? Please point out the joke. I must've missed it. Seriously.

This is growing thin, too.

Fucking A-right it is! These allegations of humor in your posts continues to go unsupported. So, what, you claim you were just kidding, or what?

Man. You don't like me. I get it. Can we get OFF that?

We've been over this, but you continue to insist on pretending we never did. It's not a question of the extent to which I like you. It's not personal. You say something stupid, you get called on it. It's weird that someone who bills themselves as a sports columnist would be shocked and bewildered by that.

Oh, and in case anyone is still actually reading this thread: the Giants can beat the Patriots, but my problem with New York is that they abandon their running game late in games for no good reason. If they do that against the Pats, they will lose and lose badly.

The Giants can't beat the Pats. Something weird would have to happen where the Pats would crumble and give the game away or something.

[The Cid]

The Giants can't beat the Pats. Something weird would have to happen where the Pats would crumble and give the game away or something.

Time for me to dust off a great cliche among sports analysts.

That's why they play the games, Deacon.

The Giants certainly can win this game, it's just not the likeliest of scenarios. Yes, the first way they could win the game is by a monumental screw up on behalf of the Patriots. That's the least likely possible scenario in my mind though, as much of this team has been through the Super Bowl before and proven themselves very "clutch." I'd be pretty surprised to see Brady throw the game away. (Then again, Brett Favre threw the NFC Championship away, so I guess it's possible.)

The Giants can also win this game with a stellar performance by all four of the following players: Michael Strahan, Osi Umenyiora, Eli Manning and Brandon Jacobs. If Strahan and Umenyiora can get penetration on Brady, they can make him into a very different quarterback. (Big "if" though, as the Pats' offensive line has been amazing all year. They'd have to be, because no offense is effective without a good line.) Meanwhile, Manning will have to pick apart the holes in New England's secondary. Their linebackers aren't the speediest lot, and this has led to a lot of open men in the middle of the field all playoff long. But that will just get you to the red zone--from there the Pats make you run the ball. That's where Jacobs comes in. He needs to bust through New England's middle, and to do that he'll have to outmaneuver Rodney Harrison. If they can do all four of those things all game long, they can win.

[ampersand]

Good god. And we've got a freaking week to go.

I think what's also key is to keep the Patriots' offense off the field. The offense needs to be on the field at least 2/3 of the time and score every time they have the ball. Given how good the Pat's have been in the playoffs, the Giants should probably more touchdowns than field goals (if not just simply score TD every time down, especially early). That way, the Defense has the leeway to actually go after Brady.

If Eli Manning will somehow win this game, maybe he should start doing those Priceless Pep Talks commercials.

I'd like to see the Patriots win for two reasons.

1) To say I saw something that before this season began no one, and I mean NO ONE believe it could be ever be duplicated in modern professional football history.

2) I'd like to see Junior Seau win one ring. He was really good in his heyday in San Diego, and he really deserves a send off to a pretty good, if not Hall of Fame career.

Then, I want to see the Patriots be unable to win 8 games next year and completely miss the playoffs.