Obama vs. McCain: Thoughts?

[ShahinVahdat]

They would still get taxed on the income they make in the country. If you sell a gallon of gas in the U.S. you still have to pay taxes to the U.S. government on it.

[JermCool]

And yet they're also the ones who pay the paychecks. So it is in the economy's interest to keep them local.

[StruckingFuggle]

Yep. The only time it's wrong to flaunt the law and demand special treatment is when it's to no one's benefit but your own.

[JermCool]

What flaunting? They're given benefits because they make money and KEEP money in the country. Where is that illegal?

[StruckingFuggle]

It's not illegal because they get the government to give them breaks from normal taxes instead of having to evade it themselves, but it's flaunting in the sense of "oh we can bend the law to our benefit and you can't, ha".

[ShahinVahdat]

Further, if wealthy people were able to get tax breaks like wealthy corporations, then the economy would go down the tank....Oh wait, that's already happening thanks to George Bush.

Obama '08

[Spero]

You people make me sick. You have no respect for private property rights. You have utter contempt for success, especially toward those who are more successful than you. Businesses do not pay taxes. They will always find a way to pass those taxes onto the consumer. Eliminate tax breaks, eliminate all corporate taxes. You guys haven't the first clue of economics or you simply ignore the basic rules to satisfy your heart's wishes rather than promoting that which is best for the country. The truth is that lower taxes on everyone and everything benefits everyone. Yes, some will benefit more than others, but the way to solve that is not to punish those who succeed, but to show those that it's possible to succeed. For some illogical reason it feels right to punish those who cure diseases; those who fuel the car that gets you to work. It feels right to tax the living hell out of companies who make profits on a product that is rising in cost. You people haven't a goddamn clue what you are advocating. How the tell is taxing something supposed to lower the price!?

Further, you couldn't care less what would happen if we eliminated the corporate tax because you simply care about what feels right. If that were to happen, businesses would flock here. They would bring their ideas, their profits and their jobs. Yes, some would be unethical, but people run business and people can be unethical. You aren't a saint, so how can every business be one? We'll deal with that as it happens. But what the good ones need is a market free of red tape and free of barriers. We are building walls and these walls are preventing smart people from doing smart things. Tear down the walls.

[StruckingFuggle]

Businesses do not pay taxes. They will always find a way to pass those taxes onto the consumer. (...) Yes, some would be unethical

Heh. "Some".

[ShahinVahdat]

Yes, I love how he uses "some will benefit more than others" I wonder who those people would be. *cough* the wealthy *cough* I forgot about all the poor people who can write off their yachts as second homes.

The fact of the matter is that companies will sell their products here no matter what b/c America is the #1 nation in consumption.

Btw, in terms of income, I am above the American median income, and I do advocate higher taxes on corporations. I don't understand why an immensely successful industry like the energy industry need tax breaks on the consumption side.

Spero, pray tell, how is not wanting the rich-poor gap to widen further contempt for success. If more people become poor than people become rich, it will hurt the economy.

[The Cid]

Question: Rather than increasing who we tax, what if we cut spending dramatically in order to lower taxes across the board?

This is a capitalist world, after all, and one that extends off of our borders. Increasing taxes on corporations makes their costs higher, which makes them more likely to shut down or take their business elsewhere, and all the jobs they provide would naturally go with them.

I'm going to say that again. It bears repeating. If we raise taxes on corporations it makes them more likely to pick up and take their business to another country. In doing so, they put a lot of people who are not in the highest tax bracket out of a job. Lowering taxes lowers their costs and makes them more likely to stay. And remember, it's their right to leave town if they wish to do so.

I do not believe that the government spends tax money at all efficiently. I would like to see them stop spending so much of it--and not just in one area, but in pretty much all areas. It is my opinion that the government needs to do less, and focusing on doing its core tasks better.

It's not that "companies will sell their products no matter what because America is #1 in consumption." It's that companies will continue to behave the way they've been. If someone wishes to stop them, they can just pick up and move elsewhere.

[Spero]

It's true that companies will always sell their products here, but wouldn't it be better if we encouraged those companies to be based here as well?

Again, I would remove those tax breaks and every other tax break, company and individual. If you want equality so badly, start with the tax code.

It's contempt for success because you are punishing those who are successful. You are saying to them "you can get to his level, but any higher and we will hurt you." How does that in any way promote progress? You stated earlier that you would advocate tax breaks for small business. If I started "Spero Dog Grooming" with me and my dog, at what point would those breaks end? $500,000 in revenue? $1 million? $5 million? $10 million? $25 million? At what point does my company become one you wish to help into one you wish to hurt?

[Mae Dean]

....lots of really one-sided mindless crap.

Look, dude. I'm dead center when it comes to politics. I can see the benefits of both sides. You're clearly a fanboy of one team - which is what this comes down to... politics is a team sport, and it's easier to choose one side to root for rather than to actually stop and think about things for half a second.

Re: Socialized health care - I'm all for this. I've visited other countries where they've had this for ages, and it's not the financial drain it's made out to be, nor is it some horrible cancer on society. Yes, it probably amounts to some higher taxes - but until you've spent three years without healthcare because the privatized healthcare industry is completely unaffordable, you don't really appreciate why this is a good thing. I've been afraid i'm going to get injured, and cost us a fortune. Liz sprained her ankle a month ago, and it's still in pain, because we haven't been able to go in and get it looked at. People should be able to get the care they need without having to go bankrupt. If all it costs the country is a few bucks more in taxes to make that possible, I think it's very greedy to be so wildly against it. At least consider the ramifications of it.

Now, I completely DISagree with Obama on social security - while I may make a mistake investing my money (hey, it's possible), the Social Security Administration has SHOWN to be well on its way to bankruptcy. It seems to me a crapshoot is better than a proven failure. If someone wants to take a crack at fixing social security without privatizing it, I say more power to 'em... but the way it is now, I'm gonna have jack shit when I get older.

Now, I'm fucking serious here. I am so VASTLY sick of this partisan line-drawing bullshit. Republicans - Democrats are not theiving bleeding hearts who want to take all your money and give it to crackheads and alcoholics. Democrats - Republicans are not gun-toting christian fanatics who want to cram "family values" down your throat. We are all just people, and if we'd stop and think about it rather than just aligning ourself with the guy on the left or the right, I think you'd find that most people are a lot closer to center than you realize. I think this is a fantastic election year, because we have two candidates that I would be happy to see as president - hell, I voted for McCain back in the 2000 primaries. I may disagree with him on a few key issues, but he's a good guy, and I think he would be a good leader. I agree with a few more things that Obama is in support of, so he will probably be getting my vote, but I still don't agree with everything.

If I see any more of this obvious partisan bullshit bickering, I'm just going to close this fucking thread. Keep it civil, and keep it INTELLIGENT. We are not each others' enemies.

[Mae Dean]

Again, I would remove those tax breaks and every other tax break, company and individual. If you want equality so badly, start with the tax code.

It has nothing to do with equality. The reason certain kinds of businesses get tax breaks is to ENCOURAGE those kinds of businesses - they're things the government deems important to the economy or infrastructure of the country, so they want to give people an incentive to setting them up. Now, I'm not saying that the government is RIGHT with which types of businesses they give these tax breaks to, but it makes a certain kind of economic sense.

[The Cid]

We are not each others' enemies.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I'd like to add to your sentiment:
Both party members...in fact, let's get independents and third party members in on this one too: NOBODY is 100% right. I don't care who you are or what your beliefs are, there is no way you, or I, or the president, or any former presidents or future presidents, will be right all the time with their every opinion.

None. We're all going to be wrong on some things. Chances are, we're all going to be right on some things from time to time as well. What I'm trying to say here is that when a problem is posed, the solution could come from anywhere. Any party. Any person.

So listen. Listen to everyone. Hear out all sides of an issue, even the unpopular ones. Even the side that comes from a person you really don't like, or a group you really don't like. Sometimes they're right. That's true of the most right-wing Republican and the most ultra-liberal Democrat.

Listen to as much as time permits. Then make up your mind. Not the other way around.

[ShahinVahdat]

In today's world, I do advocate small business tax breaks b/c without it, small businesses are at a disadvantage against bigger corporations.

That's fine, I'm all for simplifying the tax code. Straight up tax brackets with some minor deductions for charitable giving maybe.

It's not punishing those who are successful, it's saying, you're already immensely successful as it is, you don't need government help anymore. If we repealed tax breaks for oil companies, the government would get back about 18 billion dollars over 10 years. Average it out: 1.8 billion for one year and spread out across all oil companies. Exxon already makes 40 billion in net profit, how is less than a billion dollars in tax subsidies per year going to hurt them?

Further, to discuss equity in America would be a completely different debate, and on a forum would cause carpal tunnel syndrome for both of us.

I agree with Greg as well. For my part, I will try to be more civil in my discussions, but as everyone knows political discussions can get hot and heavy, and maybe I'm just a sucker for it (damn poli sci major). I apologize if I offended anyone.