Obama vs. McCain: Thoughts?

[spikegirl7]

All of western world have nationalized health care, are they immoral?

Yes, you are taking from one person to give to another. It is immoral. It is wrong.

Roads, infrastructures, protection, everyone pay for this.

When you pay taxes you are paying the government for a service that you receive. Police and roads and courts are things that the taxpayer receives for their payment of their taxes. When you take from the wealthy to give to the poor those who pay the taxes get nothing in return for their contribution.

The only thing "draining" your money at the moment, is money pit of Iraq. Something that will bring nothing to your country.

I am not a fan of Iraq. I do not believe in exporting democracy. However to leave now would be irresponsible at best.

Wealthy are not penalized in USA, they are not even close to a little parcel of penalization. They have never been. What they pay in USA is laughable in comparison to what they pay in Europe.

Which is why I have such a low opinion of many European governments.

I hope you are not too offended but your level of individualism is real curiosity to me.

Why would it offend me? You wish to know why I am so individualistic and I have nothing against that.

Only in USA I can expect to see people defending oil companies. What is quite amusing is that no matter the price, you have no choice to pay their price. They are in charge of one vital ressource, some people do not have the means to pay such high price without great impact on their life. You are defending rich more then you are protecting or helping poors.

I live below the poverty line. I make 6.50 an hour. I have no health insurance. I qualify for many government aid programs. I do not accept them. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

Oil companies pay something like 40% of their profits in taxes. That is abhorrent. If you cut that down do you not think that the price of gasoline would drop? Oil companies have little control on the price you pay at the pump. They have SOME but not much. They have to make a profit, and so does everybody else. Now, the US uses 400 million gallons of gasoline each day (source) which translates into 48 billion every four months. As such oil company profits don't really surprise me. Do they price gougue? Maybe, but from what I've seen they make a decent profit proportionally to their costs, in fact less than I would expect from any other business.

Also, I don't mean to nitpick, but poors is very bad grammar.

Do you know what happens when you tax big business? They go to other countries where they can get tax breaks. How does THAT help the economy? Durrr.

DING DING DING!!!! I am very concerned over what will happen if our oil companies decide to go this route.

Further, if wealthy people were able to get tax breaks like wealthy corporations, then the economy would go down the tank....Oh wait, that's already happening thanks to George Bush.

Tax cuts need to be paired with cuts in spending. And saying that the tax cuts are what is dragging down the economy now is wrong. If it had ANY contribution at all it is minor.

The truth is that lower taxes on everyone and everything benefits everyone. Yes, some will benefit more than others, but the way to solve that is not to punish those who succeed, but to show those that it's possible to succeed. For some illogical reason it feels right to punish those who cure diseases; those who fuel the car that gets you to work. It feels right to tax the living hell out of companies who make profits on a product that is rising in cost. You people haven't a goddamn clue what you are advocating. How the tell is taxing something supposed to lower the price!?

Further, you couldn't care less what would happen if we eliminated the corporate tax because you simply care about what feels right. If that were to happen, businesses would flock here. They would bring their ideas, their profits and their jobs.

DING DING DING!!!

I hope you are not too offended but your level of individualism is real curiosity to me.

I will now explain this. I make minimum wage. I am putting myself through school with only my money. I am paying my bills with no aid. Everything I have now is due to my own work. Everything that I have I got because I worked for it. I don't want help from the government, my life is MY responsibility.

I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't gamble. As such I keep a lot more of my income than many in my income bracket.

Tell me why it is ok to take my money in order to give it to someone else. Tell me why it is ok to tell me that I don't deserve all the money I make. Tell me why an unwed mother who drinks and smokes should get some of my money (because this is where your welfare money goes, I see the people who get it). Tell me why this is ok. Tell me why it is ok that someone else's grandparent should get health insurance with my money.

I am happy to pay for roads with my taxes. I am happy to pay for police and fire service. I am happy to pay for courts. I am happy to pay for schools. I would even be happy to pay so that (read this carefully) BASIC EMERGENCY MEDICAL PROCEDURES such as getting a broken bone set or a flu shot could be given to people affordably. But full medical care is the responsibility of the individual.

[StruckingFuggle]

Tell me why an unwed mother who drinks and smokes should get some of my money (because this is where your welfare money goes, I see the people who get it).

Hm. Well... That's an interesting thought, indeed. Welfare, etc, should be paid in some form of special currency that is not recognized legal tender for certain goods or others.

Though that then creates more bookkeeping... And opens itself up to some forms of abuse, I'd imagine. Hm

[ShahinVahdat]

Well, I think he's from Russia, so we can give him some leniency.

I'm still not sure how providing nationalized healthcare would be taking from one and giving to another if everyone pays for it through taxes?

Again, why should oil companies receive tax breaks if they are one of the most successful industries in America. You don't advocate government help for the citizenry, yet you advocate help for big corporations.

Jobs also leave the U.S. because companies can pay people dirt cheap in China, India and Mexico. If we wanted to stay competitive, we would have to do away with minimum wage.

Again, we are the #1 nation in consumption. Companies will not stop selling us their products and will be continued to be taxed on those products. Repealing tax breaks on selling their products would not be enough of a deterrent for them to not sell to America. If you would like an example, I have put a link on the OPEC thread to a source on a California law exempting taxes on the sale of petroleum products to air carriers for international flights. That's just one exemption.

Edit: Further, spikegirl, the services you advocate that you are willing to pay for are used by everyone else. It's ok b/c everyone who pays taxes, pays for it. I agree with you, welfare in this country is screwed up, that's why we need reform. However, like Greg pointed out, even people with health insurance sometimes can't use it. On top of that, 43 million people in this country live without health insurance. Add to that, people like Greg or myself who are so scared of rates going up or not even able to afford medical services WITH health insurance, and that 43 million goes up dramatically.

[spikegirl7]

I'm still not sure how providing nationalized healthcare would be taking from one and giving to another if everyone pays for it through taxes?

BIG personal problem with this. You are taking away choice from the consumer and I don't like that. It also drives up the price of health care and decreases quality when you eliminate competition.

My body, my responsibility.

[ShahinVahdat]

It doesn't take away choice. Actually in England, people have the choice of still using private health care if they so wish. I bet if people had the choice between government healthcare and private healthcare, they would pick the government and that would drive DOWN the cost of private insurance.

I just think that with the huge number of un-insured Americans and Americans with crappy healthcare, there should be a government option.

[spikegirl7]

Then do people who pay for their own health insurance have to pay taxes into the government health insurance pool too? Because then it stops being a service that you are paying for and starts being a wealth re-distribution tool again.

[StruckingFuggle]

It doesn't take away choice. Actually in England, people have the choice of still using private health care if they so wish.

It seems like there would be a problem with this - namely, if they're already paying for public health care, then their ability to exercise their choice and use private health care would be diminished by having less money to pay for it.


Personally, I think the best way right now would be just to make insurance more affordable and accessible and sustainable for everyone, by doing such things for example as forcing companies to treat all clients as a single risk pool.

[ShahinVahdat]

I really couldn't find the data on English healthcare that quickly while at work, but I'm sure in America, if you opted for private healthcare then you can make it tax deductible to a degree. Private healthcare in England is still not as big as public healthcare nor will it ever be and these private hospitals usually subcontract out to the National health service anyway.

When I get home, I'll try to find more data. However, spikegirl, I do understand where you are coming from, and I sympathize with you b/c I had to pay for school on my own, working two jobs in college at times. It's very admirable, but my core belief is that government should provide for the basic well-being of its citizenry, healthcare included. To me, there needs to be at the VERY least (I personally advocate more) basic care for people.

[ShahinVahdat]

Lucksi, would you say that the reason private health insurance is so small is also due in part b/c they have to compete with the government? Or is that completely off?

Secondly, here HMOs can deny you for a pre-existing condition. You essentially have to be as healthy as a horse to get covered. Every system has problems, but I think the American one, compared to Germany or anywhere in Western Europe, has many more.

[spikegirl7]

Is health care too expensive? Probably. Is it unfortunate that even insured people have trouble getting good care? Absolutely. However I'm not too worried about it.

Last September I got REALLY sick. I had to go to a doctor, and it turned out I had no insurance (although my work promised me I would, they did not provide it. Lousy lying bastards). I found a clinic and was able to get treatment to help identify and fix the problem. I got a generic prescription and my health cleared up rapidly after I removed the source of my ill health. In total it cost me about $200-$300 including the changes I had to make in my diet for a while and the medications.

On the same token when we finally got the bill for Steve's hospital stay (it was extensive) even with the health insurance it was a doosey. Our insurance covered 75% of it but that still leaves a LOT to be covered. However we are paying it back slowly and the hospital is working with us on the payments.

[StruckingFuggle]

We had this for some time. Basically foodstamps. Then it was outlawed by some high court (either our highest one or the european one) as degrading to human dignity.

...buh...?

[ShahinVahdat]

"Despite attempts to contain costs, overall health care expenditures rose to 10.7% of GDP in 2005, comparable to other western European nations, but substantially less than that spent in the U.S. (nearly 16% of GDP).[14]"

That's from Wikipedia for Germany's health system. Don't you think if we spent the money we use on healthcare right now, we can create a great national health program in the states? We already spend more as a percentage of GDP.

[Makh]

When you pay taxes you are paying the government for a service that you receive. Police and roads and courts are things that the taxpayer receives for their payment of their taxes. When you take from the wealthy to give to the poor those who pay the taxes get nothing in return for their contribution.

I do not follow you. You say, because you gain no benefit from that, you are against it? You need to get something in return otherwise you do not pay. When you contribute to help a mother with 2 children to get healthcare, for you, you have impression you waste your money?

I will now explain this. I make minimum wage. I am putting myself through school with only my money. I am paying my bills with no aid. Everything I have now is due to my own work. Everything that I have I got because I worked for it. I don't want help from the government, my life is MY responsibility.

I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't gamble. As such I keep a lot more of my income than many in my income bracket.

Do not give the impression you work harder than everyone else my dear. You do not work in a coal mine in Eastern Siberia. From what I know, most people with low income work hard, everywhere in this world, very hard, because they need all money they can get to feed their family and themselves and to pay their home, means of transportation and from time to time, entertainment and recreation. When one of their family member is sick, they do not always have money to take care of him or her. They can not stop working. Maybe you do not need help from government, you are lucky then. But some people need it, and that does not mean they are lazy, drunk or that they are wasting their money on useless things.

Tell me why it is ok to take my money in order to give it to someone else. Tell me why it is ok to tell me that I don't deserve all the money I make. Tell me why an unwed mother who drinks and smokes should get some of my money (because this is where your welfare money goes, I see the people who get it). Tell me why this is ok. Tell me why it is ok that someone else's grandparent should get health insurance with my money.

If you are on minimum wage, I am not convinced that you give a very big part of your money to government. I do not know the numbers but taxes you pay must be very very low. It is not question to take your money because you do not deserve it. The problem I have is that you seem to think that government steals you when you give your money for healthcare of other people. You do not seem too much consternated about the hundreds of billion spent on Iraq war, but healthcare for poor, it is like an anomaly, or worse, immorality.

[wocket]

Then do people who pay for their own health insurance have to pay taxes into the government health insurance pool too? Because then it stops being a service that you are paying for and starts being a wealth re-distribution tool again.

People without children pay taxes to fund public schooling, as do parents who homeschool/send their kids to private school. You don't have any children, but earlier in the thread said you don't mind paying your taxes for public schooling. Please explain, because it looks to me like there's a severe discrepancy in your thinking.

[spikegirl7]

People without children pay taxes to fund public schooling, as do parents who homeschool/send their kids to private school. You don't have any children, but earlier in the thread said you don't mind paying your taxes for public schooling. Please explain, because it looks to me like there's a severe discrepancy in your thinking.

An educated populace is necessary for the economic growth and development of this country. Some day I will send my kids to public schools. I will directly benefit from taxes I am paying towards education.

When you contribute to help a mother with 2 children to get healthcare, for you, you have impression you waste your money?

Not always. The problem I have with it is that I am FORCED to give the money. If there is a collection out to help someone where donations are given willingly I am more than supportive.

Do not give the impression you work harder than everyone else my dear. You do not work in a coal mine in Eastern Siberia. From what I know, most people with low income work hard, everywhere in this world, very hard, because they need all money they can get to feed their family and themselves and to pay their home, means of transportation and from time to time, entertainment and recreation. When one of their family member is sick, they do not always have money to take care of him or her. They can not stop working. Maybe you do not need help from government, you are lucky then. But some people need it, and that does not mean they are lazy, drunk or that they are wasting their money on useless things.

No, I don't work harder than everyone else. I choose not to pursue jobs that are more physically demanding. I choose not to go to jobs that are are physically harmful. Don't think I am unaware of this. I could be a coal miner, and my life would be a lot harder.

Do you know where the money for a lot of the people here goes? Lottery, beer, and cigs. In an area where a very large number of people live below the poverty line $30,000 worth of absinthe is sold in four months. $10,000 worth of beer every week. $3000 worth of cigarettes every week. AND THAT IS JUST AT THE STORE I WORK AT. People come in drunk, high, they buy $5 worth of gasoline so they can buy $20 worth of lottery tickets. And then they moan that they don't have enough money.

It becomes very hard for me to have sympathy for these people.

You do not seem too much consternated about the hundreds of billion spent on Iraq war, but healthcare for poor, it is like an anomaly, or worse, immorality.

I DO NOT APPROVE OF OUR ATTEMPTS TO EXPORT DEMOCRACY. As such I believe most of our operations in Iraq should be stopped.

You still haven't answered why it is ok to take my money to give to someone else. Because I don't need it? Who give you the right to decide that?