District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

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District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by Martin Blank » Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:44 pm

Note: There is a discussion on this amendment elsewhere within these very forums, but much of it focused on statistical or emotional aspects of the arguments for and against the Second Amendment. This thread should be focusing primarily on the legal aspects, particularly those specifically discussed in the Heller case. This does not make the other thread irrelevant by any means, and further discussion there on topics other than the legal issues presented here is permissible and encouraged.

I have put a considerable amount of time into this, including approximately four hours writing this and another five hours before that reading the opinions and dissents. I therefore strongly encourage readers to avoid certain memes, or else face disciplinary action.


On 26 June 2008, the US Supreme Court published a decision in the case of District of Columbia, et al. v. Heller. The case was originally argued before the Court on 18 March 2008, leading to a three-month period where the case was debated internally prior to publication. The final ruling was 5-4. The majority opinion was written by Justice Scalia and joined by Chief Justice Roberts and Justices Kennedy, Thomas, and Alito. Two dissenting opinions were filed, one written by Justice Stevens and joined by Justices Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer, and the other written by Justice Breyer and joined by Justices Stevens, Souter, and Ginsburg.

The majority held the following points:
  1. "The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home."
  2. "Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those 'in common use at the time' finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons."
  3. "The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of 'arms' that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense."
In the following discussion, citations will usually be removed from the quoted texts for purposes of clarity.

The case sourced from a lawsuit filed by Heller, a resident of the District of Columbia and a special policeman authorized to carry a handgun while on duty. He wished to keep a handgun at home for personal protection in relation to the hazard of being a member of law enforcement, but the District refused to grant a license. As described by the majority:
The District of Columbia generally prohibits the possession of handguns. It is a crime to carry an unregistered firearm, and the registration of handguns is prohibited. ... Wholly apart from that prohibition, no person may carry a handgun without a license, but the chief of police may issue licenses for 1-year periods. ... District of Columbia law also requires residents to keep their lawfully owned firearms, such as registered long guns, “unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock or similar device” unless they are located in a place of business or are being used for lawful recreational activities.
These laws also made the carrying of any operable firearm in any location for any purpose illegal. Therefore, one could not legally render the firearm operable and pick it up, let alone carry it to another room. The District's laws made no exception for purpose of self-defense, though the District argued that there was an implicit right to self-defense without it being spelled out in the law. However, the only exception to requirements that lawful firearms be rendered inoperable applied to law enforcement personnel (a class to which Heller evidently did not belong, even as a special policeman). The District Court dismissed the suit, but Heller won his appeal to the DC Circuit Court, which found that the laws violated the Second Amendment right for an individual to possess a firearm and directed the District to issue the appropriate license, providing that Heller was not otherwise disqualified such as being insane or having a felony conviction. The District appealed to the Supreme Court, which found in favor of Heller.

The majority sought first to gain a clear and unambiguous understanding of the meaning of the Second Amendment.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The amendment consists of two clauses: the prefatory clause ("A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State") and the operative clause ("the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"). The Court is guided by a principle established in US v. Sprague in 1931, which said, "[t]he Constitution was written to be understood by the voters; its words and phrases were used in their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical meaning." Using this logic, the Court states that "the former does not limit the latter grammatically, but rather announces a purpose." It also finds that "a prefatory clause does not limit or expand the scope of the operative clause. In determining the meaning of the text, the majority chose to focus first on the operative clause, then come back around to the prefatory clause.

The majority notes that the phrase "right of the people" appears in other locations in the Constitution, specifically the First and Fourth Amendments, and a similar term, "the people," is used in the Ninth Amendment, which ensures that rights not present in the Constitution are still present. In these cases, the rights refer to individual rights, not those that must be "exercised through participation in some corporate body." For example, under the First Amendment, each person has an individual right to speak or publish words of his or her own choice, to practice a religion of his or her own choice, to assemble in public or private, and to petition the government for redress of grievances. Justice Stevens, in his dissent, notes that an assembly by definition requires more than one person, but the majority counters that the decision of whether to participate in that assembly is an individual right.

Calling upon precedent, a quotation is supplied from US v. Verdugo-Urqidez, a 1990 decision which included the following:
"[T]he people" seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. ... [Its uses] sugges[t] that "the people" ... refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.
The Court therefore begins with "a strong presumption that the Second Amendment right is exercised individually and belongs to all Americans."

Turning to the meaning of "keep and bear arms," the Court uses several dictionary entries to define what is constituted by the word arms, and finds that it includes firearms as well as other weapons (which the language of the day separated from firearms), and that it included weapons that "were not specifically designed for military use and were not employed in a military capacity."

The Court addresses a common argument of those in favor of gun control, that the Amendment covers "only those arms in existence in the 18th century," bluntly writing that '[w]e do not interpret constitutional rights this way."
Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, ... and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, ... the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.
A key phrase in the Amendment, "to keep and bear arms," has been a point of contention for some time. Many, including the dissenters, believe that it means to have available and be ready to use weapons in the service of the militia. The majority looks to sources of the era, including preceding sources covering English law such as an instance where Catholics who did not attend Church of England services were not permitted "to keep arms in their houses." If the keeping of arms is a militia duty and would be required only to maintain the militia, it would seem that being "permitted" would make the keeping of arms an option and not an order. The Court concludes that the phrase "was simply a common way of referring to possessing arms, for militiamen and everyone else." (Emphasis in original.)

Turning to the word "bear," the majority believes this to refer simply to carrying. When combined with the word "arms," it refers to carrying for purposes of confrontation. Justice Ginsburg is quoted from her dissent in Muscarello v. United States, where in defining "carries a firearm" she states that "[s]urely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second Amendment . . . indicate[s]: 'wear, bear, or carry . . . upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose . . . of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another person.'"

Justice Stevens points out in his dissent that in the dozens of citations presented to the Court, "bear arms" had a military connotation, whether against Indians, in defense of the nation, or as part of being pressed into service by the British Navy to fight against American vessels. The majority notes, however, that there are situations where the phrase is used in a non-military context, and so they cannot be excluded simply because most references were military. (In reading Justice Stevens dissent, it is clear that the very sources from which he draws his examples were military in nature, and therefore the meanings, even without referencing an opponent from another nation, are clearly referring to a military context.) A footnote is used to cover several examples where the term "bear arms" is used in reference to a non-military conduct, including prohibiting persons from "bear[ing] any Arms within London, and the Suburbs," according to a 1704 proclamation. It would be a curious situation that England, either in tension or at war with so many other nations, would prohibit all weapons from London, as this would make an assassin's job much easier. The majority writes, "[T]he fact that the phrase was commonly used in a particular context does not show that it is limited to that context..."

Having settled on appropriate definitions for the components of key words and phrases, the Court turns its attention to the operative clause itself, finding that when combined these key words and phrases "they guarantee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation" and that "the Second Amendment, like the First and Fourth Amendments, codified a pre-existing right." (Emphasis in original.) The majority points to the abuses of Kings Charles II and James II, the Stuart monarchs who used select militias to disarm portions of the populace to prevent challenges to their power. Upon the ascendancy of King William III and Queen Mary II, the people in 1689 obtained assurances "[t]hat the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defense suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law," a promise that, considering it was to defend against the abuses of both a standing army and the presence of select militias, clearly had nothing to do with militia service itself. This right became entrenched in English legal culture, and extended across to the colonies, forming the basis for the Second Amendment.

The majority is careful to not provide for unlimited access.
There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms. Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment’s right of free speech was not ... . Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any purpose.
(Emphasis in original.)

Having clarified the operative clause, the Court sought to determine whether the prefatory clause modified it at all. Examining the phrase "well regulated Militia," the majority noted that the militia consists essentially of all males physically capable of bearing arms while acting in the common defense (paraphrased from two similar descriptions). The dissent takes the view that militias are only those military forces described in Article 1, Section 8, Clauses 15-16, and regulated by the states and by Congress. However, this view suggests that the militia exists only when the state or Congress decides that they exist. While Clauses 12-13 provide Congress the power to raise an army and to provide a navy (and implicitly the power to do away with either or both), Congress is not provided a power to raise, provide, or create a militia, but rather to call forth the militia. This clearly means that the militia is presumed to already exist, and that Congress can neither create nor remove the militia. The calling forth of the militia also need not be done in its entirety, as the Congress would call on a portion of the militia sufficient to achieve its aims, leaving the remaining militia in reserve, subject to being called but in the meantime remaining in their civilian roles. Upon the need for the active militia ending, the components of the militia -- the people -- return to their civilian roles and continue their lives. The need for the militia ends, but the militia itself remains.

An additional phrase in the prefatory clause, "security of a free State," has been argued to refer to the component entities of the United States of America. However, the word "state," with or without a leading capital, has two meanings within the Constitution. As used to refer to the components of the country, it refers essentially to those admitted to statehood and thus partaking directly in the national government. However, in Articles I and III, the term "foreign States" appears, referencing entities outside of the United States, and adding an additional meaning of a political body under a single government (which applies to constituent members of the United States as well in a somewhat more abstract form). Therefore, as the United States may be seen as a political body under a single government, the "security of a free State" would refer to the ability of the people to repel invasion, suppress insurrection, and resist tyranny.

Coming back to examine the relationship between the two clauses, the Court notes the following:
The debate with respect to the right to keep and bear arms ... was not over whether it was desirable (all agreed that it was) but over whether it needed to be codified in the Constitution. ... Federalists [argued] that because Congress was given no power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, such a force could never oppress the people. ... [T]he threat that the new Federal Government would destroy the citizens' militia by taking away their arms was the reason that right—unlike some other English rights—was codified in a written Constitution.
It notes later that in the considerable debate over the rights and protections afforded to the people and the states during and after the adoption of the Constitution,
[t]he Federalist-dominated first Congress chose to reject virtually all major structural revisions favored by the Antifederalists, including the proposed militia amendments. Rather, it adopted primarily the popular and uncontroversial (though, in the Federalists' view, unnecessary) individual-rights amendments.
The majority goes on to quote St. George Tucker's commentary on the Constitution in his version of Blackstone's Commentaries:
This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. ... The right to self-defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine the right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.
The court further quotes Joel Tiffany, an antislavery activist who sought to ensure that all free men had measures for self-defense:
[T]he right to keep and bear arms, also implies the right to use them if necessary in self defence; without this right to use the guaranty would have hardly been worth the paper it consumed.
The Court is, as mentioned above, mindful of reasonable limitations on the possession and use of firearms allowed under the Second Amendment. Quoting an 1829 decision by the Supreme Court of Michigan (then a territory and hence under federal jurisdiction):
The constitution of the United States also grants to the citizen the right to keep and bear arms. But the grant of this privilege cannot be construed into the right in him who keeps a gun to destroy his neighbor. No rights are intended to be granted by the constitution for an unlawful or unjustifiable purpose.
There have been mentions of the Second Amendment in various cases throughout the years, most notably the case of US v. Miller, which centered around a conviction of two men for carrying a sawed-off shotgun across state lines in violation of federal law. A curious aspect of that case is that only the federal government submitted written arguments or even showed up for oral arguments, and so stood completely unopposed. Here, the Court establishes that "Miller stands only for the proposition that the Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends only to certain types of weapons." As Miller allows for "arms supplied by themselves and in common use at the time," the Court goes on to "read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns" and "dangerous and unusual weapons." And in case they had not yet made it perfectly clear, the majority includes the following blunt statement:
Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
An additional common point for those opposed to the individual rights view is that technology has made the use of personal firearms in war outmoded, and that a group of randomly-armed citizens is no match for a professional military body armed with "modern-day bombers and tanks" (ignoring the effectiveness of militias using small arms in conflicts around the world). The Court recognizes this incongruity, but declines to force modern practical military reality against a constitutional right.
[T]he fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.
Having established that the Second Amendment provides, with certain limited exceptions, an individual right to own and carry firearms, the Court turns its attention to the DC law that led to the case to begin with. They find that any ban from the home of handguns, which are by far the most popular firearm class in the United States, would be unconstitutional. Even when other firearms (such as rifles and shotguns) are allowed, the ban would fail to pass constitutional review, and the Court cites several reasons that handguns may be chosen for home defense, including ease of storage in a location accessible in an emergency; that it cannot be as easily wrestled away by an intruder; that it is easier for those of lesser upper-body strength to use than many long arms; and that it can be pointed at an intruder with one hand while the other dials the police. "Whatever the reason, handguns are the most popular weapon chosen by Americans for self-defense in the home, and a complete prohibition of their use is invalid." The Court also finds that a requirement to render and keep inoperable at all times all lawfully-owned firearms prevents their use for the core purpose of lawful self-defense, and therefore is unconstitutional.

The majority opinion begins to wrap everything up after its lengthy inspection of the issues at hand with, among others, the following words:
The very enumeration of the right takes out of the hands of government—even the Third Branch of Government—the power to decide on a case-by-case basis whether the right is really worth insisting upon. A constitutional guarantee subject to future judges’ assessments of its usefulness is no constitutional guarantee at all. Constitutional rights are enshrined with the scope they were understood to have when the people adopted them, whether or not future legislatures or (yes) even future judges think that scope too broad. We would not apply an “interest-balancing” approach to the prohibition of a peaceful neo-Nazi march through Skokie. ... The First Amendment contains the freedom-of-speech guarantee that the people ratified, which included exceptions for obscenity, libel, and disclosure of state secrets, but not for the expression of extremely unpopular and wrong-headed views. The Second Amendment is no different. Like the First, it is the very product of an interest-balancing by the people.... And whatever else it leaves to future evaluation, it surely elevates above all other interests the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms in defense of hearth and home.
Finally, the majority addresses the concerns over extraordinarily high gun violence in the District of Columbia, levels which are legendary for their violence, at times leading the country in the overall murder rate.
We are aware of the problem of handgun violence in this country, and we take seriously the concerns raised by the many amici who believe that prohibition of handgun ownership is a solution. The Constitution leaves the District of Columbia a variety of tools for combating that problem, including some measures regulating handguns.... But the enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table. These include the absolute prohibition of handguns held and used for self-defense in the home. Undoubtedly some think that the Second Amendment is outmoded in a society where our standing army is the pride of our Nation, where well-trained police forces provide personal security, and where gun violence is a serious problem. That is perhaps debatable, but what is not debatable is that it is not the role of this Court to pronounce the Second Amendment extinct.
I apologize for the length of this, but there are a great many points to this debate that have circulated for a long time, and I wanted to ensure their coverage. I have tried to keep this on the point of what was presented by the majority, and I invite others, if they wish, to expound on the dissents of Justices Stevens and Breyer. This is clearly, based on the texts of the majority and the dissents, a very polarizing issue even within the Supreme Court, and there were numerous verbal jousts both subtle and blatant, including the description of one of the dissenters' grammatical arguments as "grotesque." I hope that discussion here can be kept at least as civil.
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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by ampersand » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:47 pm

Two questions that come to mind after reading your treatise:
  1. I heard that the Supreme Court had not taken up a case that directly dealt with the second amendment since 1931. If that is true, why did they take up this case? (Does it have anything to do with the immediacy of the District of Columbia to the Supreme Court?)
  2. Would it imply by this ruling that it would be acceptable for a legislative body to consider what kinds of guns would be legal or not legal, including for what purposes (e.g. certain types of shotguns for hunting purposes, but could not be used for self-defense, etc. and I'm just using this as an example, not implying my opinion about how should such guns be regulated) the guns maybe used for without a license?

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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by Martin Blank » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:08 am

To your first question, the appeals court ruled in a manner that, while not expressly against the current or past interpretations of the Second Amendment, were to some extent unique in its clear and concise determination that there is an individual right to own a firearm. Two other cases dealt with this issue, and reached opposite conclusions: the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals found in Silveira v. Lockyer that the right is a collective one, and therefore applies to the militia, or other uses as prescribed by the states, while the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals found at about the same time in US v. Emerson that the right is an individual one. Both were appealed to the Supreme Court, and for some reason, both were denied certiorari, despite the fact that they viewed the Second Amendment nearly at polar opposites.

The Court often declines to discuss why it takes a particular case. When cases are appealed to the Supreme Court, it takes at least four of the nine justices to approve hearing it. It may be that Chief Justice Roberts and Justices Scalia, Thomas, and Alito wanted to hear the case. They may take the case to resolve a difference between jurisdictions or because a ruling is novel and they feel it worthy of further discussion or clarification. They may feel that there has been a miscarriage of justice, or that there was an error in the law as the appellate court ruled. Whatever the case, the reasoning is often kept private so as to avoid biasing lower courts.

To your second question, there is undoubtedly a place for the legislatures, be they state or federal, to have some effect on the commerce of firearms, as well as detailing the circumstances under which they may be purchased, transferred, sold, stored, used, and disposed of. A legislative body can make a firearm not subject to Miller protections legal or illegal; whether a sawed-off shotgun is legal is a local matter that is left to the individual state. However, this ruling would suggest that the limitations cannot affect the utility of the firearms to such a degree as to prevent their use in a lawful manner. The Court specifically found that requiring that a firearm be rendered inoperable within the home by breaking it down was an unconstitutional limitation on the use of the firearm, as for all practical purposes it might as well not even be present. Therefore, laws must provide the user with a reasonable mechanism by which the firearm(s) may be used for lawful self-defense. I imagine they may provide that children not be able to reach them (such as by using a safe or other mechanism by which they may be locked away), but a prohibition against storing a firearm assembled and loaded or with ammunition within ready grasp would probably not pass constitutional muster.
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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by Deacon » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:57 pm

Now that I've gotten a chance to finish reading out and considering the whole thing, I have to say that this part right here is my personal favorite excerpt, primarily that which I have highlighted in bold:
Undoubtedly some think that the Second Amendment is outmoded in a society where our standing army is the pride of our Nation, where well-trained police forces provide personal security, and where gun violence is a serious problem. That is perhaps debatable, but what is not debatable is that it is not the role of this Court to pronounce the Second Amendment extinct.
It so perfectly sums up the role of the courts versus the role of the people in setting the structure in which the courts rule.

As to the rest of it, I feel the majority opinion nicely handles the how and the why and satisfies my conscience in that it is a reasonable and correct interpretation of the Amendment in both letter and spirit.
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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by Martin Blank » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:49 pm

As expected, the Heller case is spawning numerous legal challenges. Some of the examples cited in the article include:
  • Convicted felons who claim that they have a right to gun ownership solely for the purposes of self-defense in the home, despite the fact that Scalia's majority clearly labeled this exception as remaining in force
  • The NRA challenging a general handgun ban in Chicago that was introduced to reduce crime in much the same way the DC ban was intended
  • The NRA challenging a complete ban on handguns in public housing units in San Francisco, where the city claims that it has more authority as it acts as a landlord, which may have a little more merit as a homeowner can say what can and cannot be brought onto the property
In addition, a hypothetical example was raised as to someone convicted of a non-violent crime, especially decades before, who has lived a clean life since and wishes to own a gun. Should someone, using the example in the article, convicted of taking a car for a joyride at age 16 be prohibited from owning a gun at age 50?
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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by adciv » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:35 pm

First a disclaimer. I'll admit the Washington Times leans the right. However, what there talking about definitely means another lawsuit in DC. The Washington Post however, leans decidedly to the left.

DC has changed the wording of their laws. However, according to this it still violates the supreme court ruling and some of the other things they have enacted to 'comply' with the ruling are probably going to be challenged as well. The storage requirements are kept in place where the gun must either be locked or in a gun safe unless there is believed to be a clear and present danger. Also, the gun must remain in the domicile at all times. Pretty much only revolvers are allowed, no semi-automatics, based on the districts definition of a 'machine gun'. One or two other things are mentioned, but the district is going to wind up back in court pretty quickly.
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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by Martin Blank » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:49 am

I fail to see how any reasonable judge would let this slide. I suspect that an immediate restraining order would be granted preventing the law from going into effect, and that the city council will be directed to allow residents to make use of the most common weapons, including semi-automatic pistols, shotguns, and rifles. The Court was extremely clear on this point. While it allows reasonable exceptions -- fully-automatic weapons could be banned, as they are rather unusual in private hands -- those which are common cannot be banned, and since semi-automatic handguns make up around a third of all firearms and 70% of the handguns sold in the US, it would seem that they would be classed as common. Furthermore, that revolvers would be allowed when they are the less-common form of handgun should suggest that semi-automatic handguns are allowed under the Second Amendment.

They're trying to play technical games with the decision, something the lower courts are not usually keen to allow as they know they'll be overruled. What they're going to end up doing is spending a lot of taxpayer money to be forced to do what they were told to do in the first place.
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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by adciv » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:55 am

Martin Blank wrote:What they're going to end up doing is spending a lot of taxpayer money to be forced to do what they were told to do in the first place.
As someone who has lived next to DC for 20 years, I wish I could say that was unusual.
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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by Eihger » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:26 pm

Anyone else find it sad that the decision was overturned by a 5-4 vote and not a unanimous 9 vote? 1 vote away from Civil war, this is where this country is now.
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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by adciv » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:57 pm

I think it says something about those four judges.
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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by Eihger » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:39 pm

Yeah they need to be replaced IMMEDIATLY. I don't think the " Montana will secede if the courts rule in favor of DC" is covered enough.
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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by StruckingFuggle » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:49 pm

Eihger wrote:Yeah they need to be replaced IMMEDIATLY. I don't think the " Montana will secede if the courts rule in favor of DC" is covered enough.
They won't. And even if they do, it won't be much of a war this time around. It's only Montana. And hell, if it happened the President could probably spin a bunch of people against 'em if it happens before Weedkiller Day Inauguration '09 as "fucking up the war on terror" by "diverting necessary personnel to deal with their problems" or somesuch. Which would be kinda funny. :o

Also, wow. Need to be replaced immediately? Are you serious? Because of how they voted, or because of not necessarily entering the possible problems with a bunch of whining brats and possible proto-terrorists Montana into their considerations? Either way, that seems a rather extreme reaction and absurd precedent.
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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by collegestudent22 » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:11 pm

StruckingFuggle wrote:Also, wow. Need to be replaced immediately? Are you serious? Because of how they voted...
Yes. The court is not supposed to make up ridiculous definitions for what the 2nd Amendment (or any amendment, for that matter) means. It is supposed to rule whether a law (gun ban, in this case) is constitutional or not. Which with any kind of thought in the matter, anyone can tell a total handgun ban like in DC's case violates the 2nd Amendment.... Now if they wrote a side dissension stressing the importance of the ability of the government to limit that ability in VERY specific cases, but still voted with the majority, that might be a different story... But they voted to flat out defy the Constitution.... That would be an offense worthy of removal...
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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by StruckingFuggle » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:30 pm

Ah. Maybe.

... somehow I thought Eigher meant the SCotUS. /facepalm
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Re: District of Columbia v. Heller: A Second Amendment Case

Post by Eihger » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:38 pm

Fun little fact. If Montana Seceded, they would be the 4th largest Nuclear power in the world. Not only that their rallying cry could be something along the lines of "FREEEEEEEDOOOOOM" ( I heard it worked for this country in the past) Combine the people that " hate America" and you have a political situation that could be devestating.

The fact that even ONE justice went " HURF DURFF GUNZ R BAD" let alone four seriously makes me worry. We wouldn't even have the discussion of wheter or not the justices should stay if they voted against the first amendment. They'd be ousted right then and there, but because its "GUNZ OMG" theres a bit of discrepancy? They voted AGAINST the constitution which they are sworn to uphold. Thats considered treason in some respects! I honestly don't see how you can even think that those four should stay.

What would you say if they they voted 5-4 infavor of getting rid of "non free speech zones"?
Who do I have to contact to get the judges ousted?
"Water is fluid, soft, and yielding. But water will wear away rock which is rigid and cannot yield. As a rule, whatever is fluid, soft, and yielding will overcome whatever is rigid and hard. This is another paradox: whatever is soft is strong."
~Lao Tzu

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