IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by Deacon » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:29 pm

adciv wrote:build it into the terms of the bail out.
Yes.
The golden parachute clauses are there for multiple reasons
Really, there's just one reason. Executive jobs are not usually listed in the local classifieds. It's a relatively closed market, especially at the rarefied air in which these particular execs soar. So as a courtesy, they extend to each other severance packages that will keep them well shored up for the months or year-plus it may take to find another job. Of course, when someone makes over $350 million in a span of three or four years, it makes it difficult to feel too sorry for them and too worried about them going hungry. And when we're talking about the execs who've driven their companies into the ground and helped put this economy into the fragile and shaky state it's in at the moment, it makes it even more difficult to believe they deserve another $10 or $20 million.
One proposal has been to require banks to have some stake in a mortgage after it has been sold. There are a few possibilities for how that can be done.
I think one way it could be done is to forbid the mortgage lender from selling off the loan for some period of time after its been issued. Three years? Five years? Either way, it would completely eliminate this close-and-sell, rapid-turnover approach that made all that money in the short term, and it would make them think harder about the loans they agree to make.
Only in how it would affect their employment. The terms of their mortgage do not change, nor do the payments. The equity would be reduced or eliminated, but that would only matter if they try to sell the house.
If you mess with equity, you're messing with people's entire lives. And when you bring down the economy, bring down their employment, I'd say those are some rather significant ways in which "the innocent" would be affected. And that's just in the US, not to mention the rest of the world.
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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by adciv » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:57 pm

And when we're talking about the execs who've driven their companies into the ground and helped put this economy into the fragile and shaky state it's in at the moment, it makes it even more difficult to believe they deserve another $10 or $20 million.
And how do you write legislation that eliminates the execs that were idiots and not the ones that are smart?
Deacon wrote:I think one way it could be done is to forbid the mortgage lender from selling off the loan for some period of time after its been issued. Three years? Five years? Either way, it would completely eliminate this close-and-sell, rapid-turnover approach that made all that money in the short term, and it would make them think harder about the loans they agree to make.
Doesn't work, for multiple reasons. The least of which is that when the problems occur can easily be more than 5 years later. Variable interest loans and balloon payment mortgages are two instances where you would have to have a stupidly long holding time in order for it to make a difference. This would do nothing to decrease risk, only to decrease the number of mortgages as the banks would have less money to lend out.
If you mess with equity, you're messing with people's entire lives. And when you bring down the economy, bring down their employment, I'd say those are some rather significant ways in which "the innocent" would be affected. And that's just in the US, not to mention the rest of the world.
But it does not affect the terms of the agreement in the loan. You can't exactly write the terms of this such that the home buyer keeps there house from the national level. There is just no direct way to do so without banning foreclosures. The only way this messes with them is through their employment, at worst, which can not be directly fixed through any legislation. Also, equity doesn't mess with their entire lives, unless they are planning on selling some time soon. It's not like equity affects your loan payments.
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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by Deacon » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:15 pm

It does, because it affects their credit worthiness, their ability to draw loans on that equity, etc. And yes, many people sell their houses all the time. The "unless they plan on selling" is kind of a silly thing to say. That said, I'm pointing this out as the reason for the bailouts. If it were conceivable that the companies could crash and only the greedy execs and others at fault would get burned, including dumbass homeowners, then I would say let it crash and let them burn. Unfortunately, they'd take down a lot of "innocent" people with them.

As far as the loans are concerned, you could maybe make it where any interest-only or balloon-payment type loans must be treated as basically what amounts to a lease-to-own situation, where the homeowner could simply turn over keys to the house to the original mortgage company and walk away without owing anything at the end of the variable term, and the mortgage company would be stuck with the house to sell. While this would not eliminate all risk (of course), it seems like it would be in the mortgage company's best interest to only offer such loans in areas where they are freaking sure the market is solid. In other words, without having to eliminate such loans altogether, make it to where they'll only offer such loans if they're willing to deal with it if the customer walks away, which would generally only happen when there hasn't been an increase in value. No bank wants to be stuck with a house that's not worth what they paid for it. They don't want to be stuck with a house at all, of course, but one on which they've lost money least of all.

As to choosing which execs should be cut loose from the strings of their golden parachutes, they could establish basic, generalized guidelines and appoint what basically amounts to a financial court martial. A tribunal of people who would know better could be selected and they could rule based on the facts in each case. The problem would be the fraternity getting in the way, that is if these guys are in bed (or just in industry) with the individual being examined, then they might give them taxpayer money even if they don't deserve it. So there'd have to be some sort of openness policy and the possibility of being overturned by some Congressional committee or something.
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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by adciv » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:25 am

It does, because it affects their credit worthiness, their ability to draw loans on that equity, etc. And yes, many people sell their houses all the time. The "unless they plan on selling" is kind of a silly thing to say.
I'm not sure why it would affect their credit raiting. As to the selling, yeah, as in if they have negative equity in the house. Other than that, it's just the price of the house.
If it were conceivable that the companies could crash and only the greedy execs and others at fault would get burned, including dumbass homeowners, then I would say let it crash and let them burn. Unfortunately, they'd take down a lot of "innocent" people with them.
Yeah, and right now I haven't heard of many companies with greedy execs gettin burned and so far it's generally been related companies that have been burning instead.
As far as the loans are concerned, you could maybe make it where any interest-only or balloon-payment type loans must be treated as basically what amounts to a lease-to-own situation, where the homeowner could simply turn over keys to the house to the original mortgage company and walk away without owing anything at the end of the variable term, and the mortgage company would be stuck with the house to sell.
Then it wouldn't be a mortgage, it would be a rental. It also wouldn't create any responsibility on the part of the person.
While this would not eliminate all risk (of course), it seems like it would be in the mortgage company's best interest to only offer such loans in areas where they are freaking sure the market is solid.
It would eliminate risk on the part of the person taking out the mortgage. That is not the current problem. It would actually increase the risk on the part of the bank. Which, while that is the goal, this would lay it all on the bank. Basically, you just came up with a rental, not a mortgage.
In other words, without having to eliminate such loans altogether, make it to where they'll only offer such loans if they're willing to deal with it if the customer walks away, which would generally only happen when there hasn't been an increase in value.
But the idea in taking out a mortgage is that the individual is taking some risk in buying the house, not garunteeing that it will go up in value. The risk on the lender is that the buyer will not be able to pay. Essentially, you're changing the risk for the worse. The idea is not to eliminate the risk from the buyer altogher, but to increase it some for the bank.
No bank wants to be stuck with a house that's not worth what they paid for it. They don't want to be stuck with a house at all, of course, but one on which they've lost money least of all.
But doing this makes it even easier for the individual to walk away and stick the mortgage owner with the house. It essentially eliminates all risk the the borrower, puts it all on the lender, and if the bank sells the loan, they still have no risk.
As to choosing which execs should be cut loose from the strings of their golden parachutes, they could establish basic, generalized guidelines and appoint what basically amounts to a financial court martial. A tribunal of people who would know better could be selected and they could rule based on the facts in each case. The problem would be the fraternity getting in the way, that is if these guys are in bed (or just in industry) with the individual being examined, then they might give them taxpayer money even if they don't deserve it. So there'd have to be some sort of openness policy and the possibility of being overturned by some Congressional committee or something.
Again with the tax payer money. The F&F execs are not getting any parachutes, from my understanding. The only ones who are getting money, are getting it from private companies that are buying them out. AIG isn't firing the CEO. F&F are gone. No other companies are getting money that are getting taken over. And any company that is getting a loan should not have the CEO fired just for that.
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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by Deacon » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:57 am

adciv wrote:
It does, because it affects their credit worthiness, their ability to draw loans on that equity, etc. And yes, many people sell their houses all the time. The "unless they plan on selling" is kind of a silly thing to say.
I'm not sure why it would affect their credit raiting.
Not their credit rating. Their credit worthiness. Their collateral is reduced, their assets dip, they still can't get a home equity loan like they could've before, etc. And that's all before they get transferred or simply decide to move house.
Then it wouldn't be a mortgage, it would be a rental. It also wouldn't create any responsibility on the part of the person.
No, it would be a lease. Or very much like a lease, but more of a lease-to-own, much as they exist today. The difference is that it would cost the buyer relatively little up front, the mortgage company would get pure interest for the duration, but it's in the bank's best interest to be very sure that it's a good bet to make. For the would-be homeowner it's an OK deal, because they're not actually paying down the mortgage at all, but on paper they'd be a homeowner and in the end the value should increase, giving them positive equity for all the money they've been paying every month. For the bank it's a good deal ONLY if the value increases, meaning that while such a mortgage may be an option, its use would be...judicious.
It would eliminate risk on the part of the person taking out the mortgage. That is not the current problem.
It would not. Not really. It would definitely be a good deal, but the ONLY way it'd be a better deal than the existing interest-only loans is that they could simply turn the keys over and walk away without a foreclosure on their record, assuming they've made their payments faithfully up to that point and haven't yet already sold it. In the mean time they will have no equity and no claim to the property. And in the existing system, there's no risk to the mortgage company. And that's a MUCH bigger problem. That's the problem that got us where we are today. THAT is the current problem. If the banks don't want to it turn into a losing rental proposition, they won't be handing them out like candy, without weighing the risks and the rewards.
But the idea in taking out a mortgage is that the individual is taking some risk in buying the house, not garunteeing that it will go up in value. The risk on the lender is that the buyer will not be able to pay. Essentially, you're changing the risk for the worse.
No, the lender is fine. They already sold the mortgage off to someone else whose risk it is now.
But doing this makes it even easier for the individual to walk away and stick the mortgage owner with the house.
Which is already happening today in large numbers. If the house increases in value, then everyone's happy, and there's no difference.
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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by Deacon » Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:17 am

Did anyone watch the President's address tonight? I think he did a fairly good job of explaining the problem, but he didn't really give the Clinton-regulations-force-banks-to-give-risky-loans and bad-loans-granted-by-greed the what-for I was hoping for. Whether all this is truly necessary and the outcome of going either way still remains something beyond my own personal knowledge and ability to grasp.
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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by adciv » Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:54 pm

Not their credit rating. Their credit worthiness. Their collateral is reduced, their assets dip, they still can't get a home equity loan like they could've before, etc. And that's all before they get transferred or simply decide to move house.
Ok, I'm seeing your point here. One thing though. From some figures I've come across (Sorry, can't link to it, subscription news), a LARGE chunk of the lost equity has been from the houses being over value in the first place. At this point, I'm not sure if housing values are back down to 'realistic' or still 'somewhat overpriced' yet.
For the would-be homeowner it's an OK deal, because they're not actually paying down the mortgage at all, but on paper they'd be a homeowner and in the end the value should increase, giving them positive equity for all the money they've been paying every month.
and
In the mean time they will have no equity and no claim to the property.
are contradictory. Unless you mean that they will have no equity and no claim if they walk away, which is just like if they defaulted on the loan. Because of
For the bank it's a good deal ONLY if the value increases, meaning that while such a mortgage may be an option, its use would be...judicious.
it will be more like non-existent.
It would not. Not really. It would definitely be a good deal, but the ONLY way it'd be a better deal than the existing interest-only loans is that they could simply turn the keys over and walk away without a foreclosure on their record, assuming they've made their payments faithfully up to that point and haven't yet already sold it.
Which means that it eliminates the risk to the buyer.
And in the existing system, there's no risk to the mortgage company. And that's a MUCH bigger problem. That's the problem that got us where we are today. THAT is the current problem. If the banks don't want to it turn into a losing rental proposition, they won't be handing them out like candy, without weighing the risks and the rewards.
I think we need to start defining terms here. The mortgage company (mortgage holder's) risk only increases under this. Currently, the mortgage holder has a lot of Risk. If the buyer does not pay up, they get stuck with the house. That IS the risk. The mortgage company does not want to be stuck with a house. They want the loan money.

The banks have already sold off the mortgages to the mortgage company. They have eliminated their risk. They still have the encouragement of handing them out like candy as they still get the fees from the mortgage transaction but don't have to be worrying about getting the principle back as they have already sold the mortgage. THEY are the ones that have NO RISK.
No, the lender is fine. They already sold the mortgage off to someone else whose risk it is now.
And again, this contradicts what you say above by saying that "there's no risk to the mortgage company".
Which is already happening today in large numbers. If the house increases in value, then everyone's happy, and there's no difference.
Which doesn't solve the problem of what happens when the house decreases in value.
Deacon wrote:Did anyone watch the President's address tonight? I think he did a fairly good job of explaining the problem, but he didn't really give the Clinton-regulations-force-banks-to-give-risky-loans and bad-loans-granted-by-greed the what-for I was hoping for. Whether all this is truly necessary and the outcome of going either way still remains something beyond my own personal knowledge and ability to grasp.
I saw it. I think he should have used some different terms in places, as it seemed he was using the financial terms more than terms most people would think in. Other than that, a nice concise summary of the proposed legislation. I did find it annoying that the NBC news guy started playing around with the numbers by saying that it would cost a lot more than was proposed. Kind of karmic that they lost signal for a bit after that.
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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by Deacon » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:38 pm

adciv wrote:
For the bank it's a good deal ONLY if the value increases, meaning that while such a mortgage may be an option, its use would be...judicious.
it will be more like non-existent.
Which is fine by me. It's a win-win all around, with the sole exception of if the value doesn't increase at all. And if they're not comfortable issuing that loan, then great. We wouldn't be in nearly so bad a shape if they felt that way before.
I think we need to start defining terms here. The mortgage company (mortgage holder's) risk only increases under this. Currently, the mortgage holder has a lot of Risk. If the buyer does not pay up, they get stuck with the house. That IS the risk. The mortgage company does not want to be stuck with a house. They want the loan money.
The people who create the loan, who give the money over initially to the existing homeowner or builder, they have no risk. They turn around and sell the loan for a slim profit and pocket the closing costs, etc. They have no incentive to make sure they're really loaning to people who will pay.
The banks have already sold off the mortgages to the mortgage company. They have eliminated their risk. They still have the encouragement of handing them out like candy as they still get the fees from the mortgage transaction but don't have to be worrying about getting the principle back as they have already sold the mortgage. THEY are the ones that have NO RISK.
Err...yes. Exactly.
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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by adciv » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:06 pm

Which is fine by me. It's a win-win all around, with the sole exception of if the value doesn't increase at all. And if they're not comfortable issuing that loan, then great. We wouldn't be in nearly so bad a shape if they felt that way before.
But it doesn't solve the problem of the other types of loans that wil be issued and that people are still walking away from.
Deacon wrote:The people who create the loan, who give the money over initially to the existing homeowner or builder, they have no risk. They turn around and sell the loan for a slim profit and pocket the closing costs, etc. They have no incentive to make sure they're really loaning to people who will pay.
Ok, just to make sure the terms are right. That is the bank, not the mortgage company/mortgage holder. F&F are an example of mortgage holders and mortgage insurers that do not issue the loans. They are the ones taking the business side fo the risk here, that of the buyer defaulting on the loan.
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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by Martin Blank » Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:01 am

I am now a JP Morgan Chase banking customer.

Oh, and the previous record for largest failed financial institution has now been left in the dust, with the record now nearly ten times Continental Illinois's piddly $33 billion failure.
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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by ampersand » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:28 pm

There goes the "WaMu way" ad jingle I hear on the Dallas Cowboy radio network.

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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by Calus » Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:41 pm

WaMu, a perfect example of why you don't PANIC!
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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by Martin Blank » Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:10 am

There's a very nice upside to this: my primary credit card was issued by Chase. I think it means that my credit card payments will now go through much more quickly.
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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by adciv » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:16 pm

Sorry for the direct linking, but only place I can find it. I think it is shorter than my Thesis was.
Full text of the proposal
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Re: IndyMac Bank fails, second largest in US history

Post by StruckingFuggle » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:26 pm

Question if anyone's read it from someone who's curious but not wanting right now to go for the whole thing:

Is this more a gift of money, or are there something like stringent strings attached, like oversight, regulation, and penalty, that will come with people accepting the bailout?
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