Russia and Georgia fighting over South Ossetia

[collegestudent22]

The Gulf of Tonkin Incident was a complete fabrication, a mechanism designed to get the US further involved in Vietnam. I'm not afraid of saying it (unlike cs22), because it's true.

No. There was one attack. LBJ stated there were two.

In August of 1964, United States President Lyndon B. Johnson said that North Vietnamese forces had twice attacked American destroyers in the Gulf of Tonkin. Although there was a first attack, claims of a second attack were later said to be exaggerated or unfounded.

Source - LBJ tape 'confirms Vietnam war error', Martin Fletcher, The Times, Nov 7th, 2001

And yes, it was used to draw the US into the war. I never stated it wasn't. But perhaps you shouldn't claim that it was a fabrication, when there was an attack. (Granted, whether there was any serious threat to the ships in the region....)
The "mechanism designed to get the US further involved" was instead the suspicion that the ships may have been in N. Vietnamese waters, where the attacks were legitimate, while our government claimed they were in international waters....

[Martin Blank]

As it is, their actions in recognizing independence of those areas has set a bad precedent for themselves.

I see. Tell me what is diffence between this and Kosovo? If NATO want to open pandora box, they must live with consequences.

The differences between this and Kosovo aren't terribly large, except that it was done after a well-defined process (which was heavily opposed by Russia and Serbia, it should be noted) and not within days of the Kosovo conflict. But it was done from outside, and against the wishes of Serbia.

But what happens if some countries decide to recognize Chechnyan independence? What if North Ossetians decides that they wish to join with South Ossetia to form Ossetia? Is Russia then willing to recognize the loss of its own territory? Or will it tell those other countries that these are internal affairs, and that other nations shouldn't meddle in Russia's internal affairs?

Local nations, BTW, have apparently declined to back Russia in the recognition of independence or overtly supporting Russia's military activities. The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), made up of Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan, issued a release welcoming the cease fire deal that Russia signed and showing appreciation for Russia's work in peacekeeping, but also stated, "The presidents reaffirmed their commitment to the principles of respect for historic and cultural traditions of every country and efforts aimed at preserving the unity of a state and its territorial integrity." In related news, Belarus, a nation with exceptionally warm relations with Russia, declined to recognize the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, even as it said that Moscow had little choice but to do so.

And then it came back to bite you in the ass.

Are you referring to al Qaeda? Because if you are, you have much to learn about how there were dozens of groups operating in Afghanistan, many of which had no links to the US.

[collegestudent22]

And then it came back to bite you in the ass.

Are you referring to al Qaeda? Because if you are, you have much to learn about how there were dozens of groups operating in Afghanistan, many of which had no links to the US.

I believe he was actually referring to the Taliban, which had many ex-mujahideen in its ranks. Although the amount of resistance put up by the Taliban when we invaded Afghanistan was very little, and has since receded into almost nothingness, so I don't really know how that "came back to bite us" anywhere.

[Martin Blank]

Stop trying to emulate Rumsfeld. He had little idea what he was talking about, and you're in about the same situation.

Violence in Afghanistan has ramped up significantly in the last few months, including some brazen attacks on US troops. At least 136 US service personnel have died in Afghanistan since May, more than the 134 who died in Iraq in the same time span. A little more than a week ago, ten French soldiers died in an ambush by militants. Last month, 200 militants attacked a US outpost, killing nine soldiers and wounding 15 others.

It's nothing like what the Soviets faced, but it's not the cakewalk that you're portraying it to be, either.

[Makh]

Arguably, it seems that maybe Russia might be more justified in their actions than the US was with regards to Iraq. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the majority of the people in South Ossetia want to be Russian, rather than Georgian, and try democratically to part ways with their Georgian overlords? How welcome are the Russians among the South Ossetian majority? Is it really 'conquest' or 'wrong' if the local populace wish to defect?

It is the first time I hear this point in this thread and nonetheless, it is one of the most important. Ossets and Abkhaz are much closer to Russia. Most of them have Russian passport, they use ruble, not lari (they accept it I believe but it is not the main currency like the rest of Georgia), most of their income comes from Russian government. Retirement pensions are from Russia too. They always had good relations with Russia since the Tsars. I do not see what is the problem to invite them if they wish to.

I mean, sure, Russia is big and scary and Putin seems sometimes like a Bond Villain (sorry, Makh),

If Putin would make a good Bond villain, what would it be with Stalin?

But what happens if some countries decide to recognize Chechnyan independence? What if North Ossetians decides that they wish to join with South Ossetia to form Ossetia? Is Russia then willing to recognize the loss of its own territory? Or will it tell those other countries that these are internal affairs, and that other nations shouldn't meddle in Russia's internal affairs?

One country recognized Chechnya and it was Afghanistan under the Taliban rule. That, friend, should be enough to give you an idea of the nature of Chechen separatists. And Russia knows the taste of losing territory. It is not new to her. Russia did not wage war on those countries who left her after 1991. However, like I said, Chechnya does not wish to leave Russia. All the countries with a people who wanted independence are now independent (Baltic States, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Georgia too, Armenia, Azerbaijian, countries of central Asia, etc.)

Local nations, BTW, have apparently declined to back Russia in the recognition of independence or overtly supporting Russia's military activities. The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), made up of Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan, issued a release welcoming the cease fire deal that Russia signed and showing appreciation for Russia's work in peacekeeping, but also stated, "The presidents reaffirmed their commitment to the principles of respect for historic and cultural traditions of every country and efforts aimed at preserving the unity of a state and its territorial integrity." In related news, Belarus, a nation with exceptionally warm relations with Russia, declined to recognize the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, even as it said that Moscow had little choice but to do so.

No country is too hasty when the time comes to recognize another country. Dire repercussions in foreign relations could happen and it takes some time before the decision. China becomes very anxious everytime you say "independence" because of Xinjiang and Tibet so of course they will show reticence. It is normal, in this kind of situation, that most countries will be careful. It took 12 years before USA recognize Soviet Union. I know those example are quite different but in most case, recognition does not determine the validity of independence (or creation of a new country). Two times Ossets voted with great majority for secession. No one recognized them but their desire of independence is not less valid. It is at the very least legitimate.

[collegestudent22]

It's nothing like what the Soviets faced, but it's not the cakewalk that you're portraying it to be, either.

It is war. I never said there was no resistance. But most of that is from al-Qaeda and other terrorist cells in Afghanistan. I was referring specifically to Taliban resistance. We did not arm al-Qaeda, we armed the mujahideen, which took over as the Taliban when Russia pulled out.

[Deacon]

If Putin would make a good Bond villain, what would it be with Stalin?

The angel of death?

No country is too hasty when the time comes to recognize another country. Dire repercussions in foreign relations could happen and it takes some time before the decision.

... This coming from a Russian backing Russian recognition of South Ossetia? Do you not see the oddness of your comment, there?

Two times Ossets voted with great majority for secession. No one recognized them but their desire of independence is not less valid. It is at the very least legitimate.

I seem to recall the secession of a large part of the United States not being recognized either, and a war fought over it, and a total denial of the right of any state to secede regardless of any desire to do so.

God, I love american politics. Hey McCain, anyone home? Hypocrisy much?

Very possibly. Can you point it out, though, specifically?

I guess he went through one to many bomb drills and was convinced Russia might nuke the US any minute in is youth.

Out of curiosity, are you under the impression that we were never in any serious danger of a nuclear exchange?

But stuff like that is exactly my point, that is why I brought up Vietnam. One side, termed as the biggest kid on the block in this thread, goes around telling how bad the other side is, then sees nothing wrong with it with starting a war on lies (now more than one), installs new "rulers" in other countries, trains and funds terrorist (though of course they were just freedom fighters) and now goes around taking more and more freedom away from their own people and all in the name of terrorism.

What does that have to do with Vietnam? I could see how someone might make that argument, a stretch though it may be, about Iraq or Afghanistan, but Vietnam?

[adciv]

I may not be that old that I was alive when they dropped some nukes on Europe (by accidents of course, but that is still more than Russia dropped),

You sure about that? Or is it that the USSR just kept everything quite?

but I too had to fill out an entrance questionary when I went to the US the first time. Even in my short lifetime, they were still deathly afraid of communists. And crap like this helps form an opinion, believe me.

Yes, one might think the USSR had never sent spies into the US. I will also direct you towards the Rosenbergs

[adciv]

Dammit, just noticed this was on my scratch pad and forgot to add it to the above.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the majority of the people in South Ossetia want to be Russian, rather than Georgian, and try democratically to part ways with their Georgian overlords?

You see, here's something that contains three different statements that don't necessarily agree with each other. Basically, to the best of my knowlege, South Ossetia wants to be independant. I don't know that they attempted to democratically part ways one way or the other (I have never heard of a vote on the issue). Last, are you SURE they want to be Russian rather than form their own country?

[Martin Blank]

I never said there was no resistance. But most of that is from al-Qaeda and other terrorist cells in Afghanistan.

Most of it is the Taliban and tribes loyal to them, which are different from though allied with al Qaeda.

we armed the mujahideen, which took over as the Taliban when Russia pulled out.

You have no clue at all what you're talking about, as usual.

Russia withdrew in 1989. The mujahideen turned on each other in a civil war. The Taliban didn't appear until 1994, sweeping in from southern Afghanistan as a movement which started in Pakistan, fighting against the warlords who previously led the mujahideen. A number of them resisted and were executed. Others surrendered and gained favor (some of those turned on the Taliban when it was removed from power). Others refused to surrender, and ended up in a bitter war that nearly came to an end the weekend before the 9/11 attacks when Ahmad Shah Massoud, leader of the Northern Alliance, was assassinated. Had it not been for Western intervention following Mullah Omar's refusal to turn over bin Laden, the Taliban would probably have finished off the Northern Alliance by the next summer.

[Makh]

No country is too hasty when the time comes to recognize another country. Dire repercussions in foreign relations could happen and it takes some time before the decision.

... This coming from a Russian backing Russian recognition of South Ossetia? Do you not see the oddness of your comment, there?

We recognized them after 16 years. It is not what I call too hasty.

Two times Ossets voted with great majority for secession. No one recognized them but their desire of independence is not less valid. It is at the very least legitimate.

I seem to recall the secession of a large part of the United States not being recognized either, and a war fought over it, and a total denial of the right of any state to secede regardless of any desire to do so.

I am not certain I understand this part, I am tired a little. So, are you saying the cause was not legitimate (if we put slavery aspect aside) or that South USA did not have the right to secede?

[Martin Blank]

The South had no legal right to secede. This was settled in a Supreme Court case regarding Texas, which essentially said that not only was there no legal right, but that there is no mechanism at all to secede. Once in, there is no way out. At best, it would require Congressional approval, which was absolutely not forthcoming to those states that seceded.

It appears that independence for South Ossetia will be fleeting.

Officials in South Ossetia said Friday that Russia intends eventually to absorb the breakaway Georgian province.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and the region's leader, Eduard Kokoity, discussed South Ossetia's future earlier this week in Moscow, South Ossetian parliamentary speaker Znaur Gassiyev said.

Russia will absorb South Ossetia "in several years" or earlier, a position that was "firmly stated by both leaders," Gassiyev said.

[Deacon]

We recognized them after 16 years. It is not what I call too hasty.

You recognized them after less than 16 days.

[Makh]

They are de facto independent since 1992. We did not recognize them back then. No one did. It took 16 years before a country recognize South Ossetia.

[Martin Blank]

Did they declare independence then, or did they accept autonomy within Georgia? De facto independence is not independence.