A question of theology.

[Terrene]

Yes, that's why I believe in fairies and leperchauns. Also I have psychic abilities. I've never seen proof of it but I have faith in my powers.

[JermCool]

And it is that faith that has literally saved my life(...).

Literally? Would you care to share how so?

Not here, no. Frankly, it's entirely too personal and I only share this story with people whom I trust implicitly.

What you call faith is your own will to survive. Give yourself some credit friend. You are the only responsible of your success. Or failure if it happens. You first believed in yourself. Other events that are out of your control are mix of chance and a succession of coincidences.

I don't believe in coincidence.

In all seriousness, though - what happened to me transcended my own abilities. I was granted strength in a time that I had none left.

And yeah, this is all vague and ambiguous, but that's all I have to say on the matter.

[collegestudent22]

So in Genesis 1:11 God creates plants ("And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so God creates") but it's only later in Genesis 1:16 that God finally creates something that plants need to survive: sunlight ("And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also").

Yes, but there was light of some kind from way back in Genesis 1:2. ("Let there be light!" and "day" and "night" were already named.) There just wasn't a specific source of the light....

[Deacon]

In all seriousness, though - what happened to me transcended my own abilities. I was granted strength in a time that I had none left.

Well yeah, that's what I meant when I said, "It makes as much sense as believing in a lucky penny. At best it provides confidence and assurance, that extra edge needed to produce a positive result." It's basically a placebo effect. Exhausted mom lifts car to free trapped child, strength she never knew she had. An addict finds that an estranged friend really has faith in him and that gives him the fortitude to go through rehab, etc. What you got was over a mental block. It's too easy to attribute anything unexpectedly positive--or negative--in life to some higher power. Sometimes shit happens, just like good stuff happens.

[collegestudent22]

Exhausted mom lifts car to free trapped child, strength she never knew she had.

That's all adrenaline. Typically adrenaline can't help you if YOU are the one dying.

[StruckingFuggle]

It's basically a placebo effect. Exhausted mom lifts car to free trapped child, strength she never knew she had.

That's not a placebo effect, it's an actual physiological effect mediated by a number of neurotransmitters. When provoked, it both <has a <notable & extant> cause and measurable effects upon the body> and isn't something that can be tapped into at will that she just 'wasn't using' or is otherwise 'there but unknown'.

An addict finds that an estranged friend really has faith in him and that gives him the fortitude to go through rehab, etc.

That one I can't explain, but I'd wager a decent chunk on there being measurable neurological activity there, too, and guess (not much, but a bit) on oxytocin being in play, there, but that one can't be as readily explained as "mama bear powers GO!" can.

What you got was over a mental block. It's too easy to attribute anything unexpectedly positive--or negative--in life to some higher power. Sometimes shit happens, just like good stuff happens.

Take notes, people.

/agree Deacon

[Deacon]

Typically adrenaline can't help you if YOU are the one dying.

You might want to double-check your science. Adrenaline and mental will power can definitely keep you alive and moving when you otherwise would drop into a ball and die.

That said, that's an obvious example of glandular modification of both the mind and the body. The other examples are closer to the kind of thing Jerm appears to be talking about. A "spiritual experience" from nearly any source has the potential to effect a very real change in brain chemistry and attitude (though to a certain extent there's usually a chicken-or-the-egg question that comes out of that kind of thing).

[collegestudent22]

You might want to double-check your science. Adrenaline and mental will power can definitely keep you alive and moving when you otherwise would drop into a ball and die.

Ok, I was really talking about dying of some disease or something. Yes, it can, if you were say, stuck in the desert, or your arm just fell off and you are bleeding like crazy. My point was that it is not a SUSTAINED effect. It lasts for maybe 24 hours max, and then regardless, you will "drop into a ball and die".

[bagheadinc]

You might want to double-check your science. Adrenaline and mental will power can definitely keep you alive...

Ok, I was really talking about dying of some disease or something.

orly?

[StruckingFuggle]

You might want to double-check your science. Adrenaline and mental will power can definitely keep you alive and moving when you otherwise would drop into a ball and die.

Ok, I was really talking about dying of some disease or something. Yes, it can, if you were say, stuck in the desert, or your arm just fell off and you are bleeding like crazy. My point was that it is not a SUSTAINED effect. It lasts for maybe 24 hours max, and then regardless, you will "drop into a ball and die".

Can you produce an example of faith doing this when even glands couldn't? ... or are you going to break out "the absence of anything that could possibly be construed as evidence is not evidence of absence"?

(which is an absurd statement. I think it was originally coined in reference to something that was not directly show-able or had clear proof, but there was still 'evidence' in the form of 'you will know it by what it leaves in its wake / does to its surroundings', not something that had no reason beyond faith to say anything about it?

[collegestudent22]

Can you produce an example of faith doing this when even glands couldn't? ... or are you going to break out "the absence of anything that could possibly be construed as evidence is not evidence of absence"?

Not really. And even if I could, you would just rationalize it away, seeing as how faith is not something that can be quantified. Deacon's right, it is really a "placebo effect" in the sense that it would appear as such. If faith is sustaining someone, they would be sustained by mental power alone. I'm just pointing out that Deacon's examples are not a real "placebo effect".

[FireAza]

So in Genesis 1:11 God creates plants ("And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so God creates") but it's only later in Genesis 1:16 that God finally creates something that plants need to survive: sunlight ("And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also").

Yes, but there was light of some kind from way back in Genesis 1:2. ("Let there be light!" and "day" and "night" were already named.) There just wasn't a specific source of the light....

Maybe so, but the key point is there was no sun before plants were created, just the light could exist. And without sunlight, plants die.

[collegestudent22]

Maybe so, but the key point is there was no sun before plants were created, just the light could exist. And without sunlight, plants die.

Any visible light would be enough to keep plants alive. Seeing as how it is completely feasible that the Sun could produce light when it was still in the latter stages of formation, I don't see a problem here. Furthermore, if one believes in "guided evolution", then it is feasible that the "plants" in Genesis are really just algae, and other microbial "plants".

[Deacon]

Any visible light would be enough to keep plants alive.

I was going to say that this has taken a turn for the ludicrous, but the train left that station long ago.

And plants meant algae? Really? That's your assertion? And there's no way they could've said anything even close? And since God is magic, why would light even need to exist to grow plants? He invented the damn things, didn't he?

[collegestudent22]

And there's no way they could've said anything even close?

To people that have no concept of microbial life? Right.....

And since God is magic, why would light even need to exist to grow plants? He invented the damn things, didn't he?

OK. Say you create a universe. Why would you create physical laws for it, and then defy them for ordinary things like plant life.....?