A question of theology.

[Terrene]

God does a lot of shit I don't understand.

[Master Kenobi]

If God exists (and I'm certain He does)

You seem to have complete assurance of what you said. What proof have you friend? I am eager to learn on what your certitude is based.

I've been away from the thread a while, but I'll put it to you like this.

I'm certain God exists because anything exists. We live in a universe where things, by their very nature, have a beginning. Something cannot come from nothing. Regardless of how that origin happened, there was Someone there to make it all happen. That's why I'm certain God exists. If He didn't, nothing would, because something had to start the whole universe going. And don't pull out the Big Bang--what caused that? Where did the matter that existed within the Big Bang come from? Where did the matter that became the matter in the Big Bang come from? Where did that original source come from? Where, where, where? God created the universe. That's my assurance that He's there. As for what He can do, the Word of God is my assurance that He hears the cries of His people and acts to His greater glory.

[StruckingFuggle]

I'm certain God exists because anything exists. We live in a universe where things, by their very nature, have a beginning. Something cannot come from nothing. Regardless of how that origin happened, there was Someone there to make it all happen. That's why I'm certain God exists. If He didn't, nothing would, because something had to start the whole universe going. And don't pull out the Big Bang--what caused that? Where did the matter that existed within the Big Bang come from? Where did the matter that became the matter in the Big Bang come from? Where did that original source come from? Where, where, where?

How do you go from that to God, specifically, instead of some greater force; and then even more specifically, how do you go from "a God" to YOUR God, based on that?

[Master Kenobi]

How do you go from that to God, specifically, instead of some greater force; and then even more specifically, how do you go from "a God" to YOUR God, based on that?

Well, I DON'T go from "a God" to "my God" simply based on the fact that God exists. That's where the Word of God comes in, as well as natural revelation.

What is a greater force? Where did this greater force come from? If it's not God, then what's the point of anything at all and why don't we all just follow our own hearts in everything we do, even though they're desperately wicked?

Greater forces are a nice buzzword, but where did they come from? Are you just reluctant to think about a Supreme Authority out there who will judge the living and the dead?

God is a Greater Force.

[kaiju01]

A causality debate? In our forum? It's more likely than you think.

[StruckingFuggle]

What is a greater force? Where did this greater force come from? If it's not God, then what's the point of anything at all and why don't we all just follow our own hearts in everything we do, even though they're desperately wicked?

That's a question that doesn't answer itself... "if not God then (this condition that I don't care for)" is not any sort of argument for God! Well, an argument maybe for why you wish it did exist, and for what good it might do, but not an argument for its very existence or need for existence!

Greater forces are a nice buzzword, but where did they come from?

I don't know, and I still don't see anything from you that'd explain it, either. You've raised the question of possibility, but still given no evidence for what must fill that possibility. It could be a god. It could be something we have no capacity to understand or name. It could be something in-between. It could be an impersnoal force, without personification or intent as we understand it. It could be something where we are an accident or aftereffect, or a chance part of some bigger design. Scraps or scrapwork. Or the one true and willful deliberate design of a willful and personified creator that we can know.

Are you just reluctant to think about a Supreme Authority out there who will judge the living and the dead?

That could be it. Personally, if such a force existed with an absolute standard and eternal punishment, I would dedicate my eternity in opposition to the tyrannical bastard.

God is a Greater Force.

One possibility, yes.

[Arc Orion]

God is a Greater Force.

Shouldn't God be THE Greater Force?

[StruckingFuggle]

As the OP, I feel qualified to say that DAYUM THIS THREAD BE OFFTRACK.

Not that there's anything wrong with it, and I am looking forward to answers on my last post; but STILL, we've totally lost the original question, which I think got bent around way back at the beginning. Gonna try some replies and see if I can get it bent back out straight, as I'm also interested in some actual feedback on the idea.

*cracks knuckles*

But heck, we've got a quote function, don't stop the new discussion on account of this, as both can go on here! (see, you can do this with derailment on a forum, it's spiffy).

I'd like to know how you're measuring outcome, actually.

Congruence of outcome and request/hope. If someone gets what they wanted, it could be said for the purposes of this discussion to work, and similarly, "failure" is operationally defined as someone not getting what they want.

Quite frankly, who are you to determine whether a prayer has been effective or not?

I think the bit above does a decent job of it...

If God exists (and I'm certain He does), we cannot know His mind totally. We can't see the future. We don't know the plan. However, we are COMMANDED to pray. Prayer is about more than request. It is worshipful reverence, thankfulness, praise, confession, repentance, and request all rolled into one. You're focusing on just one aspect when it is far more than that; as a result, you're misinterpreting what prayer is supposed to be.

Well then we can call it something else, and maybe we should, for the purposes of this discussion ... which is only about something that people. If that's what prayer is, in whole or in part, or not, is largely irrelevant to my actual, original question, which was based on asking about, specifically, something people do. That seemed to be prayer. Even if it's not, then it doesn't matter what it's called.

In regard to prayer requests, they are a form of worship, like Jesus did in Gethsemane when He pleaded "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will (Mt. 26:39)." It is a plea to God, but an acknowledgment that His will is (and should be) paramount. It's worship, plain and simple. "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." We are to ask only in the context that we ask in the full knowledge that God's will overrides our desires.

Okay, thank you, that pretty much seems to answer my question, I think... People do so because they're told to, not because they think it'll make any difference? (though you'd - I'd, at least - think that that knowledge would nullify the comfort value of the asking, even if it does engender a defeatist sort of acceptance that could possibly be comforting, too)

---

Why bless others with protection from god, or pray for there wellbeing, when God has long shown that such things do not prevent the blessed from coming to harm?

I think that I do not share the assumptions behind this question.

Would you care to expand upon that? I'm curious where and why you disagree.

Strictly speaking, Fuggle, I do not need a uniform, univocal definition of a "prayer," in order to show that your statements contain a strawman, however veiled. I only need the fact Christians, such as those represented on this board, do not agree with your understanding of prayer or however else you wish to denote it.

It's still irrelevant, that you disagree with it "not being prayer so it doesn't count".

Let me rephrase the original question, then, without using "the P word."

"People have been observed to ask God for deliverance or protection from strife, struggle, or harm, for themselves or for another. Yet there are times when for all the asking, no deliverance comes, and no protection is offered against the thing that they sought salvation from. At the same time, there are times when no deliverance or protection from strife, struggle, or harm is asked, yet it comes in mundane, or even miraculous ways. From the fact that both of these things, especially the former happen, and especially with the idea that what God wants to happen will happen regardless of what you ask or don't ask for, the act of asking seems rather irrelevant to the outcome. As such, what is the purpose of asking, specifically, for deliverance or protection, when it seems the asking does nothing to influence the results?"

But you're still drawing conclusions based on hidden assumptions.

Which assumptions are hidden? People call what they do (as rephrased above) "prayer". People who're believers in some entity you pray to. I wasn't aware that I couldn't use the word they use to describe it to discuss what they're describing; and I had assumed - I guess wrongly - that if there were "more aspects to prayer", people would at least realize then that we were specifically discussing this and only this aspect/facet/type of prayer. But fine. If it's still giving people difficulty, I'll specify "this kind of prayer", instead of "prayer".

Forgive me if you done so already, but maybe you can explain how you know this:

when God has long shown that such things do not prevent the blessed from coming to harm?

Two quotes above should show that. It's simple observation of the fact that it happens. Plenty of times.

[naval_aviator_2040]

If God exists (and I'm certain He does)

You seem to have complete assurance of what you said. What proof have you friend? I am eager to learn on what your certitude is based.

I've been away from the thread a while, but I'll put it to you like this.

I'm certain God exists because anything exists. We live in a universe where things, by their very nature, have a beginning. Something cannot come from nothing. Regardless of how that origin happened, there was Someone there to make it all happen. That's why I'm certain God exists. If He didn't, nothing would, because something had to start the whole universe going. And don't pull out the Big Bang--what caused that? Where did the matter that existed within the Big Bang come from? Where did the matter that became the matter in the Big Bang come from? Where did that original source come from? Where, where, where? God created the universe. That's my assurance that He's there. As for what He can do, the Word of God is my assurance that He hears the cries of His people and acts to His greater glory.

just out of curiosity are you aware that you just paraphrased Aristotle? The Prime Mover

[collegestudent22]

I had assumed - I guess wrongly - that if there were "more aspects to prayer", people would at least realize then that we were specifically discussing this and only this aspect/facet/type of prayer.

You don't seem to understand the concept of prayer at all. Thus, you assume that you can "specifically discuss this and only this aspect". That isn't possible from a theological standpoint, Fuggle.

Sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers
Remember when youre talkin' to the man upstairs
That just because he doesn't answer doesn't mean he don't care
Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers.

I think that sums it up quite nicely.

[StruckingFuggle]

You don't seem to understand the concept of prayer at all. Thus, you assume that you can "specifically discuss this and only this aspect". That isn't possible from a theological standpoint, Fuggle.

so you have a monopoly on defining what prayer is and isn't? Well then you have a lot of believers to go tell that, say, when they ask you to keep someone close to them who's in a bind in your prayers, that asking God for them to make it out well and okay isn't prayer. Go on, I can sit here and wait.

And like I said several times already, but I guess have to keep repeating... It doesn't matter what you call it. It doesn't even matter if it's not prayer. It still. doesn't. change. the. question.

(Heck, I've asked the question a couple times already without using "the p-word"!)

Sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers
Remember when youre talkin' to the man upstairs
That just because he doesn't answer doesn't mean he don't care
Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers.

I think that sums it up quite nicely.

That doesn't sum up or answer anything! It ignores the question! In fact it only raises the question AGAIN and bolds it! If - God - has - his - own - plans - and - will - follow - them - regardless - then - why - ask - God - for - anything?

[collegestudent22]

so you have a monopoly on defining what prayer is and isn't? Well then you have a lot of believers to go tell that, say, when they ask you to keep someone close to them who's in a bind in your prayers, that asking God for them to make it out well and okay isn't prayer. Go on, I can sit here and wait.

I never said any of this. Your interpretation is incredibly biased here. You seem to think that communication with God (whatever you call it) is SOLELY about getting what you ask for. What about situations where you ask for something that would be detrimental to your life? Why would God grant that desire?

If - God - has - his - own - plans - and - will - follow - them - regardless - then - why - ask - God - for - anything?

Hell, Fuggle, why would a kid ask his parents for candy if they have already decided that the kid doesn't get any? Why ask your boss for a raise if he has his own plans for who gets raises? Why ask your buddy if you can borrow $5 if he might not give it to you? Why do anything when the outcome isn't certain?

Prayer is not asking.
Prayer is putting oneself in the hands of God,
at his disposition,
and listening to his voice in the depths of our hearts.

Finally, look at it this way. God, being omniscient, knows what you need. Therefore, he will give you this. Perhaps something you ask for in your prayer is not only not what you need, but you want something that you would not want if you knew more than your do. And you are completely ignoring the issue of multiple people asking for the same thing, when only one person can have it. You are also ignoring the idea of people having free will. Perhaps you pray for a promotion, but the free will of your boss gets in the way of that. There is more than just asking and receiving at work....

[Deacon]

You know you're on the fast track to becoming a rambling hobo when you've got me siding with Fuggle.

[collegestudent22]

You know you're on the fast track to becoming a rambling hobo when you've got me siding with Fuggle.

Not really. You clearly do not believe in the theology behind it. Neither does Fuggle. It makes sense that your views would be close on the subject...

[Deacon]

No, your answers are embarrassing. I used to cringe when people like you would open their mouths.