Piracy and Somalia

[Calus]

So the Crimes of the Grandfather are to be paid by the Grandson? You are still justifying crime. Even crime on those that had nothing to do with the Pillaging of centuries ago.

[Seraphim]

So the Crimes of the Grandfather are to be paid by the Grandson?

Well yeah. I don't think you get to keep stolen goods. I don't think you should get to inherit them either. Whether it's a T.V. or the plunder of a continent.

And if the plundered steal some food money? So what.
"It can only be stolen once!"?

Even crime on those that had nothing to do with the Pillaging of centuries ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa

The Scramble for Africa, also known as the Race for Africa, was the proliferation of conflicting European claims to African territory during the New Imperialism period, between the 1880s and the First World War in 1914.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism

During the 20th Century, the overseas colonies of the losers of World War I were distributed amongst the victors as mandates, but it was not until the end of World War II that the second phase of decolonization began in earnes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism#Neocolonialism

The U.S. has long been interventionist; establishing the Panama Canal Zone and its intervention in Vietnam during World War II are just two examples. The United States intervened in various countries, by issuing an embargo against Cuba after the 1959 Cuban Revolution—which started on February 7; 1962—and supporting various covert operations (the 1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion; the Cuban Project, among other examples. Theorists of neo-colonialism are of the opinion that the US preferred supporting dictatorships in Third World countries rather than having democracies that always presented the risk of having the people choose being aligned with the Communist bloc rather than the so-called "Free World".

For example, in Chile (see United States intervention in Chile) the Central Intelligence Agency covertly spent three million dollars in an effort to influence the outcome of the 1964 Chilean presidential election;[21] supported the attempted October 1970 kidnapping of General Rene Schneider (head of the Chilean army), part of a plot to prevent the congressional confirmation of socialist Salvador Allende as president (in the event, Schneider was shot and killed; Allende's election was confirmed);[21] the U.S. welcomed, though probably did not bring about the Chilean coup of 1973, in which Allende was overthrown and Augusto Pinochet installed[22] and provided material support to the military regime after the coup, continuing payment to CIA contacts who were known to be involved in human rights abuses;[23] and even facilitated communications for Operation Condor,[24] a cooperative program among the intelligence agencies of several right-wing South American regimes to locate, observe and assassinate political opponents.

The proponents of the idea of neo-colonialism also cite the 1983 U.S. invasion of Grenada and the 1989 United States invasion of Panama, overthrowing Manuel Noriega, who was characterized by the U.S. government as a druglord. In Indonesia, Washington supported Suharto's authoritarian New Order.

France wasn't inactive either: it supported dictatorships in the former colonies in Africa, among others: Omar Bongo, Idriss Déby, and Denis Sassou Nguesso, leading to the expression Françafrique, coined by François-Xavier Verschave, a member of the anti-neocolonialist Survie NGO, which has criticized the way development aid was given to post-colonial countries, claiming it only supported neo-colonialism, interior corruption and arms-trade. The Third World debt, including odious debt, where the interest on the external debt exceeds the amount that the country produces, had been considered by some a method of oppression or control by first world countries; a form of debt bondage on the scale of nations.

Some notable military operations include: the Suez Crisis in 1956; the Chadian-Libyan conflict in 1969-72, 1978-79, and 1983-87; Kolwezi in what is now the Democratic Republic of the Congo in May 1978; Rwanda in 1990-94; and the Côte d'Ivoire (the Ivory Coast) in 2002 to the present.

On February 23, 2005 the French law on colonialism was an act passed by the Union for a Popular Movement (UMP) majority, which imposed on high-school (lycée) teachers to teach the "positive values" of colonialism to their students (article 4).

Which is funny since France is the one doing a lot of the anti-piracy operations.

Soviets have their own history of it too, further down the article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Bank#Criticism

Some critics of the World Bank believe that the institution was not started in order to reduce poverty but rather to support United States' business interests, and argue that the bank has actually increased poverty and been detrimental to the environment, public health, and cultural diversity.[9] Some critics also claim that the World Bank has consistently pushed a "neo-liberal" agenda, imposing policies on developing countries which have been damaging, destructive and anti-developmental.[10][11] Some intellectuals in developing countries have argued that the World Bank is deeply implicated in contemporary modes of donor and NGO driven imperialism and that its intellectual output functions to blame the poor for their condition.[12]

The World Bank supported from the beginning the Brazilian Castello Branco’s authoritarian-rightist government, supplying it with a $80 million loan for power projects.[13]

It has also been suggested that the World Bank is an instrument for the promotion of U.S. or Western interests in certain regions of the world. Consequently, seven South American nations have established the Bank of the South in order to minimize U.S. influence in the region.[14] Criticisms of the structure of the World Bank refer to the fact that the President of the Bank is always a citizen of the United States, nominated by the President of the United States (though subject to the approval of the other member countries). There have been accusations that the decision-making structure is undemocratic, as the U.S. effectively has a veto on some constitutional decisions with just over 16% of the shares in the bank;[15] moreover, decisions can only be passed with votes from countries whose shares total more than 85% of the bank's shares.[16] A further criticism concerns internal governance and the manner in which the World Bank is alleged to lack transparency to external publics.[17]

In 2008, a World Bank report which found that biofuels had driven food prices up 75% was not published. Officials confided that they believed it was withheld from publication to avoid embarrassing the President of the United States, George W. Bush.

This isn't a black and white issue.

[Deacon]

Oh my god yes it is.

[Seraphim]

Oh my god yes it is.

lol. like just because you so say so

*is a priveleged white american that has never had to worry about food*
*condemns the actions of starving former slaves, without considering mitigating factors*
*posts*

[Arc Orion]

*is a priveleged white american that has never had to worry about food*

I'm not sure this is entirely true of Deacon.

*condemns the actions of starving former slaves, without considering mitigating factors*

Given that most of the populace of Somalia was born after the exit of the European powers there, they were never "slaves" to Italy or England.

[Seraphim]

Given that most of the populace of Somalia was born after the exit of the European powers there, they were never "slaves" to Italy or England.

So the problems that arise from plundering and enslaving people, should dissapear in less than 60 years after you officially stop?
Which still ignores the wealth of information that support modern American and European intervention.

[Calus]

Even crime on those that had nothing to do with the Pillaging of centuries ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa

The Scramble for Africa, also known as the Race for Africa, was the proliferation of conflicting European claims to African territory during the New Imperialism period, between the 1880s and the First World War in 1914.

I'm talking about India in that statement.

[The Cid]

It might be time to bring this thread back. Apologies if my necro somehow offended somebody. (The link is really just there to bring the thread up to date and mention the Maersk Alabama situation.)

---
Anyone have any idea what can be done about this? I mean, this piracy thing seems like it has problems all around. Ships in the Gulf of Aden and the waters around the Somali coast aren't safe, people are dying, and oh by the way the nation of Somalia itself is effectively without authority.

How bad are things in Somalia? Put it this way: bad enough that a growing number of Somalis are taking to piracy. Right now, the country has pretty much nothing to offer its people, up to and including effective government. It's a nation that's been in utter chaos for some fifteen or so years.

Before you even say it: arming the ships would be next to impossible. That would mean that every time a ship crossed any nation's waters they would be forced to find a port and undergo an inspection. That's not really feasible. Water cannons, however, have been shown to be effective. Arming the ships would also do nothing to stop the cause of the influx of pirates, which is that piracy is more or less the most lucrative job a Somali person is eligible for.

[collegestudent22]

Anyone have any idea what can be done about this? I mean, this piracy thing seems like it has problems all around. Ships in the Gulf of Aden and the waters around the Somali coast aren't safe, people are dying, and oh by the way the nation of Somalia itself is effectively without authority.

According to the news I am watching on the subject, the military is planning to attack the pirate training camps, in much the same way as it did during the Barbary Wars, albeit with far more advanced technology. Whether Obama will OK that plan of action..... who knows?

How bad are things in Somalia? Put it this way: bad enough that a growing number of Somalis are taking to piracy. Right now, the country has pretty much nothing to offer its people, up to and including effective government. It's a nation that's been in utter chaos for some fifteen or so years.

Can't be worse than Noriega's rule of Panama as a narco-state. Military solved that problem too, 19 years ago.

Arming the ships would also do nothing to stop the cause of the influx of pirates, which is that piracy is more or less the most lucrative job a Somali person is eligible for.

The last time piracy became a problem, Marines invaded the region. Perhaps a similar strategy would work. I wouldn't want to become a pirate if the last group of them were killed or rounded up by US Marines......

[StruckingFuggle]

The last time piracy became a problem, Marines invaded the region. Perhaps a similar strategy would work. I wouldn't want to become a pirate if the last group of them were killed or rounded up by US Marines......

...You realize the first part of your quote there kind of undermines the second, eh? Or at least shows that it's a temporary solution, not a permanent one.




Why do people keep driving unprotected boats through such dangerous waters, anyway?

[Arc Orion]

I imagine it's the quickest and/or cheapest way to get to where they're going.

[collegestudent22]

The last time piracy became a problem, Marines invaded the region. Perhaps a similar strategy would work. I wouldn't want to become a pirate if the last group of them were killed or rounded up by US Marines......

...You realize the first part of your quote there kind of undermines the second, eh? Or at least shows that it's a temporary solution, not a permanent one.

The last time the solution was used, it worked for 200 years, and the rise of piracy was in a different region of Africa. Look up the history of the Barbary Wars, the REAL "Forgotten Wars". And yes, they were initiated by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. The same Jefferson who said, "War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses." And James Madison who said, "Of all the enemies of public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other." If those men could recognize the need for warfare to be conducted on occasion.....

Why do people keep driving unprotected boats through such dangerous waters, anyway?

Risk < Reward. Capitalism at work.

[StruckingFuggle]

Hrm. Sounds like a bad need for a shipworkers union.

[collegestudent22]

Hrm. Sounds like a bad need for a shipworkers union.

Yes, that's what we need. A union to fix something that isn't broken. Forget getting rid of pirates. Let's have them slowly extend their reach through all useful trading lanes and have all the shipping companies be in the same position as the automakers. AND we can get a union for the Army, so they don't have to do possibly dangerous duty (like WAR!) THEY VOLUNTEERED AND SIGNED UP TO DO.

[Mav]

Or guns. I support guns in this situation. Personally, if I was a captain with routes heading through that area, I would just opt for mounting a few machine guns. But, if what issues Fuggle pointed out about with issues regarding sailing an armed ship into another nation's waters are true, then waiting for the Marines works too. You already have a defenseless country that mostly hates you and continues to shoot your dudes - when exactly has this ever not been solved by military action? And now you have quotes from the pirates about how they're going to rough up their next American hostages while somehow failing to realize they don't have a leg to stand on. But we better not shoot them, because they... uh... might support terrorism more? I'm all for not pissing off semi-civilized populations of the world if it means not getting air planes flown into our shit, but I'm not exactly sure how Somalia could get any worse, given its current condition.