Israel's response to Hamas rockets from Gaza

[collegestudent22]

Muslim terrorists didn't care that they were pissing off the world's only superpower on 9/11/01.

Those extremists don't have a political nation.

So it can only be a holy war if they have a political nation? Or are you implying that they thought they were safe because they didn't have a nation? Because both are WRONG.

That is called military might and having the right allies. Also, Israel started several conflicts you refer to.

And if I had that military might and the right allies, I wouldn't allow weaker countries to bully me into giving up land, which you seem to think is what happened when Israel gave up Gaza and the West Bank.

In 1967 (Six-Day War), Syria, Egypt and Jordan amassed troops along the Israeli borders and Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. The Yom Kippur War began on October 6 1973 (the Jewish Day of Atonement), the holiest day in the Jewish calendar and a day when adult Jews are required to fast. The Syrian and Egyptian armies launched a surprise attack against the unprepared Israeli Defence Forces.

The First Lebanon War was started because:

Palestinian irregulars constantly shelled the Israeli north, especially the town of Kiryat Shmona which was a Likud stronghold inhabited primarily by Jews who had fled the Arab world.

In the First Gulf War,

Iraq attacked Israel with 39 Scud missiles. Israel did not retaliate. Israel provided gas masks for both the Palestinian population and Israeli citizens.

Now, which war were you accusing them of starting?

Hardly on their own will. Its call survival (literally, religiously, and politically).

BS. Again, they have military might and strong allies. They could easily defeat any attack against them. They did not give up that land because they were forced to.

Arab countries and organizations refuse to recognize Israel as having a right to exist.

Egypt has recognized that right. As has Qatar, Jordan, and Mauritania.

"A war to the bitter end." - Israel's defense minister, Ehud Barak

Way to ignore the context. The actual quote is: "a war to the bitter end against Hamas and its kind." Easily interpreted as a "war on terrorism".
Source

This isn't something deeper?

No. It isn't.

[StruckingFuggle]

Arab countries and organizations refuse to recognize Israel as having a right to exist.

Considering the land was first theirs...

Then the Hebrews slaughtered a lot of them with fervent, deity-sanctioned genocide... (well, supposedly, but then I think everyone over there BELIEVES they never historically did, even if they didn't, including the Israelis)

Then they got the land back ...

Then the lost the land to Imperialism, and those Imperialists decided to assuage their guilt by giving up nothing significant (it's easier to give up land that's not really yours, instead of has been yours for years) and splitting the land of the arabs so arab and jew would share ...

Then the Jews armed up and took it for themselves through a war of their own insitgation...

...Maybe they have something resembling a point, even if they take it to a horrible extreme, one that sort of undermines the authority of said point.


Right to live? Absolutely! Right to live THERE? Questionable. Intelligent? Hell no. The jews of israel are dumbasses. Kind of like a man who walks into a bear cave, sets up a tent between mother and cub, and declares every right to defend himself against the bear.

[collegestudent22]

Considering the land was first theirs...

Then the Hebrews slaughtered a lot of them with fervent, deity-sanctioned genocide...

Then they got the land back ...

Then the lost the land to Imperialism, and those Imperialists decided to assuage their guilt by giving up nothing significant (it's easier to give up land that's not really yours, instead of has been yours for years) and splitting the land of the arabs so arab and jew would share ...

Yes. No one has ever fought a war over land before. EVER!

Except, you know. Every fucking country currently on the planet.

[collegestudent22]

I knew it! Lucksi is a NAZI!!1!!

[StruckingFuggle]

*facepalm* And that was my point, that that fact seems to be ignored here. We never discuss that Israel DID take their land by force, and that, hey, most of the time, we consider it a pretty valid source of a grudge, wanting your land back...

[Hirschof]

Just another part of a long running religious war in the Middle East. But now there are more political factors involved than in the past. There is much more to this than a territorial conflict. You can't ignore history.

So it can only be a holy war if they have a political nation? Or are you implying that they thought they were safe because they didn't have a nation? Because both are WRONG.

No genius... they don't have a political state to worry about. Plus, Muslims dominate the Middle East where as Israel is practically a religious island.

And if I had that military might and the right allies, I wouldn't allow weaker countries to bully me into giving up land, which you seem to think is what happened when Israel gave up Gaza and the West Bank.

Which is what they did until pressured by other larger nations and aggressive neighbors. There was a ton of political pressure for the Gaza pull-out plan. Ariel Sharon didn't exactly have much support, from politicians or citizens, on the plan either.

Egypt has recognized that right. As has Qatar, Jordan, and Mauritania.

But what about Bahrain, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, and Iraq?

And I said "conflicts" and not "war." Israel has made several preemptive strikes in Gaza, Iraq, and Egypt.

1956: Invaded Egypt's Sinai Peninsula.
1981: Attack Nuclear facilities in Iraq.
1982: Invaded Lebanon in response to an assassination attempt ordered by a Palestinian military leader.

They could easily defeat any attack against them. They did not give up that land because they were forced to.

Only a fool lives in that state of mind. You can't be strong forever and everyone has a weakness.

Easily interpreted as a "war on terrorism".

Or Arabs who are fighting for a religious cause! *gasp*

No. It isn't.

Of course not... Not like hundreds of years of continuous bitter feelings and conflict with a half century of territroial battles come into play at all! How silly!

[Deacon]

*facepalm* And that was my point, that that fact seems to be ignored here.

Yes, such as your shocking ignorance of the history of the Hebrew nation and the land that is currently Israel and your resulting pretzel logic that leads you to your stated conclusions.

This isn't a full blown confrontation but this latest development with the Hamas and Israel has strong ties to the years and years of religious turmoil in the Middle east. This is beyond self defense.

For some it is primarily a question of territory, with ethnicity and religion being only minor factors. For others on the Muslim side it is very generously salted with religious radicalism. For other Muslim states who support these terrorist groups, it is partly political but mostly religious radicalism. For Israel, no, this is not a military operation to assert the dominance of a religion, not a jihad.

Its called survival (literally, religiously, and politically).

Arab countries and organizations refuse to recognize Israel as having a right to exist.

"A war to the bitter end." - Israel's defense minister, Ehud Barak

This isn't something deeper?

See what I mean? It's "a war to the bitter end" because Muslim extremists and sympathizers will continue fighting and funding the fighting until Israel ceases to exist or until these extremists lose the ability or will to fight, not because Israel won't rest until Judaism has wiped out Islam--whereas the opposite is true. If the patterns of history are borne out, though, then if Muslims do at some point lose the ability or will to wipe out Israel, it will be only a reprieve, even if it lasts generations.

[Hirschof]

This isn't a full blown confrontation but this latest development with the Hamas and Israel has strong ties to the years and years of religious turmoil in the Middle east. This is beyond self defense.

For some it is a question of territory. For others on the Muslim side it is very generously salted with religious radicalism. For other Muslim states who support these terrorist groups, it is partly political but mostly religious radicalism. For Israel, no, this is not a military operation to assert the dominance of a religion, not a jihad.

See what I mean? It's "a war to the bitter end" because Muslim extremists and sympathizers will continue fighting and funding the fighting until Israel ceases to exist or until these extremists lose the ability or will to fight, not because Israel won't rest until Judaism has wiped out Islam--whereas the opposite is true. If the patterns of history are borne out, though, the latter would be only a reprieve, even if it lasts generations.

That wasn't my point. My point is that there are strong religious factors in this latest conflict and not purely a self-defense situation. It is just another part of an old religious war. Whether you are the target of religious extermination or the nut wielding the blade... you are still a part of a religious battle.

[Deacon]

OK, please clarify. From Israel's standpoint, it is a self-defense action, not an effort to assert religious dominance of Judaism. Would you agree?

[Hirschof]

OK, please clarify. From Israel's standpoint, it is a self-defense action, not an effort to assert religious dominance of Judaism. Would you agree?

I agree but...

Whether you are the target of religious extermination or the nut wielding the blade... you are still a part of a religious battle.

The incident itself is an act of self defense but it is not solely that. There are too many factors that make this another part of religious battles between Judaism and Islam.

[StruckingFuggle]

By now I'm sure it's as much an act of revenge as it is of defense.

[Hirschof]

eh... I wouldn't go that far. I have no doubt Israel wants peace.

Maybe some of them look at it as "preservation of their faith" against pissed off Muslims in the Gaza but this is definitely just a continuation of religious confrontation. (Well, in my opinion anyways).

EDIT:

Meanwhile Hamas announced that Israeli forces killed Saeed Siam, one of its leaders, along with his son and brother, and vowed to avenge his death. - CNN

No problems with declaring vengeance on their part.

[collegestudent22]

this is definitely just a continuation of religious confrontation.

When did this religious confrontation start? Because when Mohammed started the religion of Islam, the nation of Israel still existed, albeit as a province of the Arab caliphate. It was a Jewish nation, though. Before that, Islam did not exist, and Israel was ruled by the Byzantines and the Romans for 500 years after Jerusalem was sacked and the Jews expelled...

[Hirschof]

When did this religious confrontation start?

The modern violence we see today really got started in early 19th century but the bitterness, violence, and outright hatred began as early as the 10th century.

Here are some early examples (C&P):

During early Islam, Leon Poliakov writes, Jews enjoyed great privileges, and their communities prospered. There was no legislation or social barriers preventing them from conducting commercial activities. Many Jews migrated to areas newly conquered by Muslims and established communities there. The vizier of Baghdad entrusted his capital with Jewish bankers. The Jews were put in charge of certain parts of maritime and slave trade. Siraf, the principal port of the caliphate in the 10th century CE, had a Jewish governor.

Throughout history, there have been numerous instances of pogroms against Jews. Examples include the 1066 Granada massacre, the razing of the entire Jewish quarter in the Andalucian city of Granada. In North Africa, there were cases of violence against Jews in the Middle Ages, and in other Arab lands including Egypt, Syria. and Yemen Jewish population was confined to segregated quarters, or mellahs, in Morocco beginning from the 15th century. In cities, a mellah was surrounded by a wall with a fortified gateway. In contrast, rural mellahs were separate villages inhabited solely by the Jews.

The Almohads, who had taken control of much of Islamic Iberia by 1172, far surpassed the Almoravides in fundamentalist outlook, and they treated the dhimmis harshly. Jews and Christians were expelled from Morocco and Islamic Spain. Faced with the choice of either death or conversion, some Jews, such as the family of Maimonides, fled south and east to the more tolerant Muslim lands, while others went northward to settle in the growing Christian kingdoms.

In 1400, the Jews of Aleppo were herded into their synagogues and slaughtered to the last man by soldiers of Central Asian Islamic conqueror Tamerlane; the young women were raped. These actions taken by Timur's army do not necessarily exemplify a hatred towards Jews by Timur though, but rather an unfortunate casualty of war. Despite Timur's ill reputation as a brutal conqueror, there is evidence which asserts that Timur exhibited tolerance towards Jews residing within his empire. In 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.

In 1492, Askia Mohammad I came to power in the previously tolerant region of Timbuktu and decreed that Jews must convert to Islam or leave; Judaism became illegal in Mali, as it did in Catholic Spain that same year.

A "religious war" is a religiously motivated group trying to spread its beliefs by violence or suppressing another group because of its beliefs. And even if you are on the other side of this oppression/aggression you still find yourself in a religious war/conflict. And like traditional war, sometimes the fighting and anger never stops so the war never really ends.

Israel wants peace and safety (they are not looking to purge the land of Islam) but to do so they have to stop the Hamas who are not only fighting to be free the influence of Israel but also for the removal of Judaism from "their" land. Israel finds itself in a religious conflict.

Note: I realized that I accidentally used "Holy War" (ex: crusades) earlier which is different from "Religious War" (ex: violence, fights, oppression). I apologize for the confusion on that but I stand by my point.

[adciv]

Considering the land was first theirs...

Then the Hebrews slaughtered a lot of them with fervent, deity-sanctioned genocide... (well, supposedly, but then I think everyone over there BELIEVES they never historically did, even if they didn't, including the Israelis) [/url]
Really? There were Muslims in 1000 BC? Or whenever that was?

Then they got the land back ...

You mean when the Roman Empire moved in in ~60BC and took it from the Jews?

Oh yes, Hirschof, if Israel was targeting Palestinians like they thought they were soldiers, the entire West Bank (or should we call it Judea and Samaria) would have no Palestinians in it at all.