Israel's response to Hamas rockets from Gaza

[Hirschof]

I just don't think they care too much about civilian causalities which ties to my thoughts on the history.

I'm interested in seeing what U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moo can get done in his visit.

[adciv]

If I didn't care to much about civilian casualties, I'd be using carpet bombing instead of laser guided munitions all the time. But that's me. Seriously, look up the ammount of bombs dropped during WWI and WWII and realize that 90% or more missed the target. It would be cheaper in $$$ to carpet bomb than use 'smart bombs'.

[Hirschof]

I agree but carpet bombing in today's world political environment? They are already getting a ton of shit for what they are doing now. They have military targets but I just don't think they care about the collateral damage.

"The Al-Quds Hospital, run by the Palestine Red Crescent Society, was hit twice Thursday -- the second time around 10:30 p.m., leaving the facility in flames and forcing the staff and patients to evacuate onto the streets. The hospital is located in the Tal Al-Hawa neighborhood, west of central Gaza City." -CNN

[collegestudent22]

I agree but carpet bombing in today's world political environment? They are already getting a ton of shit for what they are doing now. They have military targets but I just don't think they care about the collateral damage.

Do you know how hypocritical you sound, here? You claim that the Israeli strikes don't care about collateral damage while they use the least damaging bombs and do everything they can to prevent civilian casualties and collateral damage. It isn't their fault the enemy hides behind civilians and civilian buildings.

[Hirschof]

Hypocritical? You moron, I never said I supported it. I never said they were going after the civilians. I just agreed with adciv's "If I didn't care" statement.

I said "I don't think they care." The attacks they are using are more accurate, yes, but that doesn't mean they are going out of their way to avoid civilians.

[Deacon]

The question isn't whether they care, it's the priorities involved. It's the same stupid shit people have been doing forever, putting munitions depots underneath schools and chemical weapons labs under baby formula plants so they can point to whoever takes them out and call them evil and claim they don't care about civilians. And there are enough batshit Palestinians to allow Hamas to get away with what would be considered war crimes (IIRC) for any actual country to do, such as hiding out in or under hospitals and such.

[Hirschof]

The question isn't whether they care, it's the priorities involved. It's the same stupid shit people have been doing forever, putting munitions depots underneath schools and chemical weapons labs under baby formula plants so they can point to whoever takes them out and call them evil and claim they don't care about civilians. And there are enough batshit Palestinians to allow Hamas to get away with what would be considered war crimes (IIRC) for any actual country to do, such as hiding out in or under hospitals and such.

I can agree with that. Tactical guerrilla warfare?

[adciv]

I agree but carpet bombing in today's world political environment? They are already getting a ton of shit for what they are doing now. They have military targets but I just don't think they care about the collateral damage.

Isn't that contradictory? You say that they don't care about collateral damage or civilian casualties. Yet you also say that they wouldn't use a method that is cheaper ($$$) and less dangerous to their own people than they are currently doing with the precision bombs. I'll also add artilerly bombardments to the carpet bombing of things that would be safer and cheaper than using precision weapons. Mind you, by safer, I mean for the Israeli side, not for the Palestinians.

I agree with that. Aside from the people who don't care much for Israel (who surround them) they sure don't catch as much flak as a world power would for this kind of an offensive.

I'm not so sure about that. Consider that every time Israel does something in retaliation for the rocket attacks, we have these massive protests all over Europe and the Middle East. When was the last time there was a protest against Hamas for all the rocket attacks and suicide bombers? Cause if there has been any, I have not seen them covered by any news organization. In fact, ever time the rocket attacks or suicide bombers have been reported, it seems like those interviewed always say "this is Israel's fault for how they treat the Palestinians".

Let me ask you this, since part of this seems to involve the ground war/invasion. Do you think Hamas will ever stop attacking Israel so long as it has the ability to do so and Israel still exists? If not, is there anyway to stop Hamas other than removing their ability to wage war against Israel? If not, how would your suggest removing their ability to wage war?

[Hirschof]

Isn't that contradictory?

No, I'm talking about the political aspect of it. If they completely leveled the Gaza Strip what do you think the world and Muslim reaction would be like then? I sure as hell wouldn't try it.

I'm saying they could be carefree about the civilians getting killed/hurt but they aren't stupid enough to go in and flatten the place.

Let me ask you this, since part of this seems to involve the ground war/invasion. Do you think Hamas will ever stop attacking Israel so long as it has the ability to do so and Israel still exists?

Those are really good questions. I don't think Hamas will stop anytime soon as long as they have the ability to do so. I also believe that if Israel was completely out of the Gaza Strip there would still be violent conflicts in the area.

If not, is there anyway to stop Hamas other than removing their ability to wage war against Israel?

I would say time is a factor but fuck if I know how. Too much tension, bad blood, and stubborn minds.

If not, how would your suggest removing their ability to wage war?

Unless something horrific happens, I don't think Israel is going to go in and level the place. Consider Israel's position in the Middle East. If Israel wiped out Hamas in a quick and complete fashion the whole Muslim world could come crashing down on them. So how would I stop Hamas (ignoring the historical background)? For political reasons, I would probably do the same thing Israel is doing (tactical strikes). Deacon brings up a good point, it is hard to fight these people without killing civilians because of their tactics (I just don't think Israel cares if Palestinians are killed in the strikes because of religious/political history).

[collegestudent22]

I just don't think Israel cares if Palestinians are killed in the strikes because of religious/political history

The problem with this statement is that the same events would occur regardless of Israel's attitude towards the Palestinian people as a whole. Therefore, you are attributing a motive to a group of people that you cannot prove.

Furthermore, if they didn't care if the innocents were killed in the strikes, why didn't they start the strikes immediately after the first few rocket attacks. To me, that indicates at least a willingness to attempt some modicum of diplomacy first...

[Hirschof]

I've already made points concerning both of those statements so I'm not going to point it out again. I'm not sure why I would expect you to actually read something.

adciv: I meant to ask... what are your answers to your own questions?

[adciv]

Hirschof: It seems like a lot of people who are inteveiwed or post on news sites believe that Israel should not be able to retaliate or wage war against Hamas. Or believe that any civilians killed, regardless of the circumstances, constitute a war crime on Israel's part. The same people are always silent and/or blame Israel when rockets are fired or a suicide bomber attacks. None ever seems to give any alternatives to military strikes, always saying that Israel shouldn't do it, but not saying what Israel should do. I was trying to find out if you were part of that group or not, or if you actually did have an alternative suggestion. So far, I do not think you are part of that group.

Personally, from a political point of view, I don't think Israel should have gone in. Militarily, I think they should level the place. Technological solutions are coming that will hopefully solve the rocket attacks. The suicide bombers are still a problem. I'd classify the area as under a siege/blockade, with a number of the groups that claim they want to bring in humanitarian supplies, also trying to bring in weapons.

One thing I find interesting. I ocasionaly look at articles from the Jerusalem Post. Yes, I know that makes them suspect in their accuracy, I take that into account, it's something related that I've noticed. I see a lot of articles regarding Hamas and a few other things occasionally come up from there through drudge. Yet, never have I seen anything that confirms or denies it from another paper. One recent headline was "Hamas takes humanitarian supplies, sells them to civilians" or something along those lines. I don't know if it is true or not, it remains undetermined like Schroedinger's cat. What I want to know is why I never see anything one way or another on stuff like that from BBC, USA Today or any of a group of others. Not even a denial.

*edit*
Ah, found the article

[Thorsman]

Lucksi, for once I like the way you think. I'm disturbed now.

[Deacon]

Well, most Jews have money and are shrewed businessmen, so it will help the economy.

Yes, and their big noses will help smell out danger, but their neuroses and mother-induced guilt will paralyze them from action.

[Martin Blank]

End the stereotypes right now.

Hirschof, the Israeli government does care about the civilians. They had a three-hour cease-fire every day. They called the homes and businesses in the area of coming airstrikes, telling them to get out of the buildings within the next few minutes. Even the high-level Hamas member that was killed with his brother was called and warned. Israel is also soon to get the Small Diameter Bomb and its variant, the SDB Focused Lethality Munition, if they don't have them already. The FLM bombs use an altered explosive mix to shrink the blast radius while maintaining the power of the blast within that radius, further limiting collateral damage.

BTW, Israel has declared a unilateral cease-fire. Troops remain in the Gaza Strip for now until Hamas accepts a formal truce. Hamas has said that there can be no truce until Israel withdraws; Israel may do that if Hamas stops shooting at troops and Israeli territory.