Obama's plan for a government circle-stimulation

[collegestudent22]

Look, sometimes things suck. The government isn't there to make sure that you never have to go through hard times. It needs to stop attempting to do so, or the deficit will continue to grow until the country goes broke and EVERYONE has a crappy life - similar to what Germany went through before Hitler.....

Noble self-sacrifice in the name of serving your countries interests, or cheap ploy to get out of financial debt and desperate grab at an improved lot in life when you're down on your luck with nowhere else to turn? You decide!

Regardless of why, you are risking your life for something outside you/your immediate family. How can that NOT be noble? I would say it would be noble even if you were drafted.

It does come a bit too close to indentured servitude as punishment for debt, though.

Except for, you know, being COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY and something you can QUIT just like any other soldier. It's no closer to indentured servitude as punishment for debt than ANY OTHER JOB. Stop being a moron.

[Deacon]

Other than undermining any sort of claims to nobility of military service? Not really.

The reasons you go into it don't necessarily undermine what you learn and do while in service.

It does come a bit too close to indentured servitude as punishment for debt, though.

No, just irresponsible debt, and that's one option of many. It may help avoid issues like bankruptcy and foreclosure, etc.

CS22, you do NOT get to just quit whenever you feel like it. The US military is not a work-at-will organization. Stop being a moron.

[StruckingFuggle]

Look, sometimes things suck. The government isn't there to make sure that you never have to go through hard times.

When you put it like that, a question finally occurs to me: "and offering an option like joining the military and getting federal pay isn't the government providing a solution how?"

Regardless of why, you are risking your life for something outside you/your immediate family. How can that NOT be noble? I would say it would be noble even if you were drafted.

I disagree, especially if you're not doing it because you believe in the risk but rather because you felt like there weren't any other reasonable options, especially in the case of being drafted. Like if I was, and didn't manage to get out of it: "well, shit, I'm stuck here serving what's now an oppressive, slave-using tyrant, my options are fight for him and maybe die, or go to prison, or maybe get killed, and I think I'd prefer not to go to prison maybe". Oh yes, that's really noble.

Besides ... If a country starts drafting people, it's pretty much likely ceased to be something worth defending for any other reason other MAYBE than "people I care about live here".

Except for, you know, being COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY and something you can QUIT just like any other soldier. It's no closer to indentured servitude as punishment for debt than ANY OTHER JOB. Stop being a moron.

Really? I didn't know you could up and quit once you'd signed the contract ... hell, didn't we have a big huge argument over the case of someone in massive legal trouble because he tried just exactly that? Remember Lt. Watada?

And no, the sacrifices of personal agency given up and authority subject to rather far outstrip the ordinary extent of control your bosses have over your life, doesn't it?

[collegestudent22]

CS22, you do NOT get to just quit whenever you feel like it. The US military is not a work-at-will organization. Stop being a moron.

I didn't say that. I said that you can quit. Notice is something like six months to a year, but you can still quit.

Look, sometimes things suck. The government isn't there to make sure that you never have to go through hard times.

When you put it like that, a question finally occurs to me: "and offering an option like joining the military and getting federal pay isn't the government providing a solution how?"

Because the military isn't there to provide solutions like that. It is there to provide a service that is built into the Constitution and necessary because no one else can provide it and that is PROTECTING the freedoms and rights citizens of this country enjoy. Being an option for those going through hard times is just a side benefit.

Besides ... If a country starts drafting people, it's pretty much likely ceased to be something worth defending for any other reason other MAYBE than "people I care about live here".

I'm sure that's why people were drafted into WWI and fought in Europe. Because "people they cared about" lived in France......

And no, the sacrifices of personal agency given up and authority subject to rather far outstrip the ordinary extent of control your bosses have over your life, doesn't it?

And? Again, completely voluntary. Something can't be a "punishment for debt" if you can just choose not to do it.

[Arc Orion]

Except for, you know, being COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY and something you can QUIT just like any other soldier. It's no closer to indentured servitude as punishment for debt than ANY OTHER JOB.

collegestudent22, you word it here as though it is akin to quitting most any job. This is not the case. Either you were unclear in your statement, or you actually meant it the way Deacon interpreted it and you are now backtracking.

The reasons you go into it don't necessarily undermine what you learn and do while in service.

This is a strong point. Whether or not it is the want or intention of a member of the military, one cannot serve and go through the entire service without providing in some way to the welfare of the nation. It does not, however, mean that the individual is somehow more noble than another who has not joined the military. I live near two military bases, and interact with current and former soldiers on a fairly regular basis. In my personal experience, those who have been in the military are about as "noble" as those who haven't. I regularly get current and former soldiers who come into my workplace expecting some sort of dispensation from us as a retailer due to their position. We already offer a small (5%, which is actually quite a bit, given our margins) discount on products to current (and unofficially, former) soldiers. However, I've had several soldiers come in expecting more, or expecting us to make exceptions because of it.

On the other hand, some of the most respectful and generally pleasurable individuals I've worked with in the my job have been soldiers. For instance, a Master Sergeant I helped with a somewhat uncommon technical need was extremely respectful, courteous, and patient while we figured out what the exact accessory it was he needed to get something working.

[Mae Dean]

Gentlemen, before you continue to belabor your point with CS22, allow me to remind you who it is you're arguing with:

[Springy]

The problem with joining the army is you don't make much money right away. I mean, if you're a single parent with young children who is going to take care of them while you're in training for 1-2 years (IF not longer)?

[Arres]

CS22 stop talking. I wanted to defend the military as not indentured servitude, and now I feel like an idiot. I haven't even made a point yet.

Springy, it's rare that the service will take in a single parent who doesn't have proof of someone to care for their child at a moments notice for months at a time.

[StruckingFuggle]

Because the military isn't there to provide solutions like that. It is there to provide a service that is built into the Constitution and necessary because no one else can provide it and that is PROTECTING the freedoms and rights citizens of this country enjoy. Being an option for those going through hard times is just a side benefit.

What about the government providing last-resort jobs that create value and get labor done as a means of providing aid to "those going through hard times", instead of 'just giving out money'?

Besides, it's not as 'glorious' as enlisting, but keeping the country running and building it up - making it into something worth defending and ensuring its internal, domestic ability to operate, are just as vital (yes, to preempt, this equality runs both ways) to the future of any good nation ... so it's still providing a necessary service to the country.

I'm sure that's why people were drafted into WWI and fought in Europe. Because "people they cared about" lived in France......

ITT cs22 doesn't understand the meaning of "maybe".

No, in WWI, the problem was a clusterfuck of international obligations creating a horrible war we were only tangentially related to and people were drafted because a few influential people in the government decided that we needed to go fight so badly that they had to go and force people at gunpoint and against their wills to go overseas and fight for a random cause that was totally unrelated to that whole "PROTECTING the freedoms and rights" of this country.

What I had meant with the "maybe" was I consider the only defensible use of the draft is against a clear and immediate threat directly to our people; however I also believe that in the face of such, a draft wouldn't really be necessary - people would do what they could anyway. At an other time, if you can't (these days) convince the people to sign up and go fight your war, then a draft is a massive abuse of government power, the act of a government that should not be defended - forcing an unwilling populace at gunpoint to fight for your own personal bidding is the act of a tyrant, or in the case of a democracy where the draft must be enacted by act of legislature, a group of tyrants.

But, wow, this thread is getting derailed.

And? Again, completely voluntary. Something can't be a "punishment for debt" if you can just choose not to do it.

It's not 'completely' voluntary if it's your only available recourse beyond, y'know, prolonged unemployment without any sort of benefit or welfare...

[Arres]

It' STILL voluntary Fuggle. You have no right to employment or welfare.

[StruckingFuggle]

Hm. Absolutely and strictly true, you can still still make the choice to be homeless and broke, but ... hm. I don't think the words for the concepts I'm looking for exist in the english language because they're so foreign to our cultural constructs. *ponders* ... it's not a choice that society should leave people to have to make?

You have no right to ANYTHING AT ALL WHAT SO EVER beyond what you and a bunch of other people decide to enforce you have a right to. I guess I think that we should create a right to be able to at least work for the means to exist in and as a part of society, the same we created a right to free speech (to a certain and sometimes limited extent and for a given quantity/definition of "free").

Goddamnit, I keep almost touching on a seemingly vitally important concept but cannot articulate it. Something about "yes it is a voluntary choice but only a decision voluntarily made from a position that people should not be put into". Hm...

Ultimately, Arres, everything is voluntary. Everything is a choice. If I put a gun to your head, or even just to your shoulder, and tell you "give me your money or I will shoot you", however you choose to reply is your voluntary choice. You can choose to pay up, or you can choose to refuse.

Or maybe not, you might disagree, but once you explain why, then we can proceed from that base.

[collegestudent22]

Either you were unclear in your statement

Then I was unclear. Sorry about the confusion.

What about the government providing last-resort jobs that create value and get labor done as a means of providing aid to "those going through hard times", instead of 'just giving out money'?

Besides, it's not as 'glorious' as enlisting, but keeping the country running and building it up - making it into something worth defending and ensuring its internal, domestic ability to operate, are just as vital (yes, to preempt, this equality runs both ways) to the future of any good nation ... so it's still providing a necessary service to the country.

The necessary functions should be treated the same way. If we think we need to spend more money on roads, we debate it in the budget. The funding for that kind of thing should NOT be dependent on the economy. It should be dependent on whether the American people determine that we need to revamp the road/power/whatever else system. There should be no such thing as a stimulus bill. It merely helps those that DON'T do what they are supposed to. If you can PAY your mortgage, you don't get helped. If you didn't take retarded loans without reading the terms, sucks to be you. If your business followed the rules, you DON'T get any of the bailout money. Seriously? You screwed up, so now you deal with the consequences.

go overseas and fight for a random cause that was totally unrelated to that whole "PROTECTING the freedoms and rights" of this country.

Yes, there was absolutely no threat to this country at all. Well, except for the whole "Germany urging Mexico to fight us" thing....

I mean, if you're a single parent with young children who is going to take care of them while you're in training for 1-2 years (IF not longer)?

The Army will. Or any other branch. (similar information is available at their sites)

Army Child and Youth Services (CYS) provide affordable childcare programs for Army families. Costs are typically based on rank and pay grade. Programs range from daycare facilities to sports and fitness programs.
Child development centers provide full-day care, part-day care and hourly care for children 6 weeks to 5 years of age.
Family childcare homes offer full day, hourly, extended hours and long-term care in government quarters and off-post residences.
School-age services deliver before- and after-school care during the school year and camps during vacations.
Middle school/teen programs focus on sports and fitness, life skills and leadership, arts and recreation and mentoring and education for youth grades six through 12.
Sports and fitness programs are available for children up to 18 years of age and include team sports, individual sports, fitness and outreach.
Youth education support services include school transition support, instructional programs, youth sponsorship and home school support.
Outreach programs include referrals to off-post childcare programs, parent co-ops, trained babysitters for evening hourly care and partnerships with community organizations.

Wall is missing a Republican logo

I'm registered as an Independent.

Something about "yes it is a voluntary choice but only a decision voluntarily made from a position that people should not be put into".

In the immortal words of John Fitzgerald Kennedy:

"...there is always inequity in life. Some men are killed in a war and some men are wounded, and some men never leave the country, and some men are stationed in the Antarctic and some are stationed in San Francisco. It's very hard in the military or personal life to assure complete equality. Life is unfair." Press conference, 3/21/62.

Emphasis mine. Source is the JFK library.

[StruckingFuggle]

Well then, why should you care about taxes and social programs? Sure, maybe they're unfair, but life is unfair, eh? This is not a rhetorical question, this is an Actual Question. If life is unfair, and if that is argument against protesting the unfairness or trying to do anything about it being "unfair", well then, how can the same not apply to you?


I don't disagree with JFK's quote, I don't disagree with it as an assessment. I do not, however, see context to establish What Should Be Done from it, ad I think I disagree with your conclusions of motivation.

[collegestudent22]

Well then, why should you care about taxes and social programs? Sure, maybe they're unfair, but life is unfair, eh? This is not a rhetorical question, this is an Actual Question. If life is unfair, and if that is argument against protesting the unfairness or trying to do anything about it being "unfair", well then, how can the same not apply to you?

I care about taxes and social programs because I want what's best for me. The government is taking my money. I should have a say in where that goes. That is why I am against social programs handing money out to people. That is why I am against higher taxes to pay for anything that goes against my values. It is also why I am against the government manipulating things to make them "more fair". The government is established by a social contract. That contract (the Constitution) states the responsibilities of the government. NONE of them include making sure everyone is OK. They DO include making sure Americans aren't dead and don't have an agreed upon set of rights infringed. Not stealing from its citizens to make certain no one suffers the indignity of not being "well off".

From an economic standpoint, these social programs just cause failure. If all my needs are taken care of when I don't work, can't pay my mortgage, etc. why would I then try to find work? That mentality spreads, and then we end up with the USSR or the Jamestown Settlement before John Smith.....

[StruckingFuggle]

I care about taxes and social programs because I want what's best for me. The government is taking my money. I should have a say in where that goes. That is why I am against social programs handing money out to people. That is why I am against higher taxes to pay for anything that goes against my values. It is also why I am against the government manipulating things to make them "more fair". The government is established by a social contract. That contract (the Constitution) states the responsibilities of the government.

Stiiiiill sounds like you're protesting that the world isn't fair.

NONE of them include making sure everyone is OK.

"promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity", maybe?

From an economic standpoint, these social programs just cause failure. If all my needs are taken care of when I don't work, can't pay my mortgage, etc. why would I then try to find work? That mentality spreads, and then we end up with the USSR or the Jamestown Settlement before John Smith.....

If true, then that sounds more a point that 'social programs in their current form cause failure', rather than 'failure is a necessary result of all social programs'.