10/26/2009 - Like Shakespeare, in Klingon

[Roundtop]

Anyone else notice that Liz is knitting during the entire strip?

I don't mind the mispronounciations much. I mean, I tolerate bad IT on TV, so what's a few pronounciations.

PS: CSI is one of the worst offenders of both.

CSI: "Can you enhance that photo?" "sure, I'll run it through the filters" *result is a perfect view of a face that was blurry before*

Real Life: "Can you enhance that photo?" "Hell no. It was a still taken from a security camera running analog that doesn't even have 1MP of resolution, taken at night, and the guy's face is about 3 pixels to begin with."

Watching NCIS: LA was the worst this last week. Without spoilers.... they are looking at a recording of a parking lot camera (Which they just found). The camera was freaking zoomed in and following the subject through several PTZs, where they would have obviously have been off camera if it was a previous recording!!!

Got a little off topic... oh well. To get back on topic... I don't get mad when you USians misspell colour or honour, or mispronounce french names of things, so live and let live. (Honestly, the next time my wife claims to not be able to read the french label on a box, I'm going to pull out some US product and say "HEY! I don't complain about your spanish labels, and it isn't even an official language in the US") (Though as a side note, it is a de facto official language, due to it's frequency of use in government and the school system, it is not recognised as an official language of the USA)

[jerald_parker]

I agree with you that its idiocy. The digital "freedoms" taken by writers in crime shows make me cringe. I want to hurt somebody whenever security cameras are used to make "positive and unequivocal" ids of people at night, through the rain, off a reflected surface, etc. I always want to throttle the "criminals" in those shows because they should just shut up and not say or do anything, oh and get a lawyer damn it.

On the topic of mispronunciations, i believe that there isn't " a perfect pronunciation" of anything because even "perfect" speakers of a language, natural or not, don't all sound perfectly the same. There's also emphasis, speed, etc that change exactly how the word sounds. So I say that so long as you can understand what the word is supposed to be then don't hate too hard.

[Lizzegirle]

There are pronunciations of words that can change the meaning. In Chinese, you could have three words that are all the same spelling, but it's the way you pronounce them that alters the meaning.

Now, there are regional differences with language too, but for the most part, alot of words are said that same way. The commercial had someone saying "Boooona". Where in Italian, it's pronounced "Bi-oh-na". In Spanish, it's pronounced,"Boo-eh-na". There is definitely a difference between all three of those.

[adciv]

I don't get mad when you USians misspell colour or honour, or mispronounce french names of things, so live and let live.

Who the hell calls us USians? And it really isn't a big deal for us to mispronounce French names given that we don't speak French.

(Honestly, the next time my wife claims to not be able to read the french label on a box, I'm going to pull out some US product and say "HEY! I don't complain about your spanish labels, and it isn't even an official language in the US") (Though as a side note, it is a de facto official language, due to it's frequency of use in government and the school system, it is not recognised as an official language of the USA)

Actually, the USA has no official language.

[JermCool]

You know, I'm willing to bet Greg knows a little bit of Klingon. If he doesn't know the Klingon word for 'success', his Trekkie card would need to be revoked.

[Mae Dean]

...fuck. It's the only klingon word I know, and I didn't even know that's what it meant.... but..

Qapla'!

[JermCool]

You're safe...

for now.

[jerald_parker]

To liz,

yes there are "words" in the chinese language family (mandarin, cantonese etc) that are pronounced differently but "spelled" the same. The issue is slightly different for chinese, than say every other language I know enough about to comment on. Chinese languages do not have a direct phonetic alphabet. So the different pronunciations are different "words" entirely, as far we english speakers are concerned. Theres a word for it in english hmmm.... words that sound but are spelled the same unless its not? I may have it backwards ..... doh!

[BtEO]

Wikipedia had a nice Venn diagram:


And there is a correct pronunciation — at least on a country-by-country basis (compare Picard's [resistance is] Futile with Data's in First Contact) with English — learn IPA and check your dictionary.

[Roundtop]

Who the hell calls us USians? And it really isn't a big deal for us to mispronounce French names given that we don't speak French.

Actually, the USA has no official language.

Well, I'm not going to call you "Americans", as that insults Mexico, Canada, and the entire of South America; using "The people of the United States of America" is a little long winded, and USians just seems to go right along with the mentality of a lot of the red states, with the focus on the "us".

PS: My wife is from the USA, so I'm not blindly bashing. In fact, I have no problems with most people I know from the US. But there is a cultural ego that goes beyond nationalism to elitism, which the rest of the world is aware of and for the most part just puts up with.

This goes along with "I don't speak french, so why should I know how to pronouce it". But this is the same test Liz applied to the commercial. If the person didn't speak Spanish or Italian, why should they know how to pronounce it.

As for Official languages... I acknowledge your point about the US having no "official" language, but that is really legalese, as it does, since English is taught at all schools as a primary language, and all official government correspondance is in english as the primary language, I would argue that it is the official language, regardless of what legal fiction may state.

[jerald_parker]

Thanks for the diagram!

It makes me wonder if constructed my argument wrong early this morning...

So if you take the "desert" example in the diagram, and you theres no countervailing factor of one of the two pronunciations being a bastardization of a "foreign" word, then I would almost have to say that you get the same issue of multiple pronunciations meaning different things in both english and chinese. As far as spelling as a pronunciation guide I think the Chinese have the hardest time of all the languages I come in contact with so I'm sure they have heteronyms and homonyms of some sort. I'll ask a few of my friends that are versed in mandarin or cantonese about it.

As to pronunciations being distinct ala

Wikipedia had a nice Venn diagram:
And there is a correct pronunciation — at least on a country-by-country basis (compare Picard's [resistance is] Futile with Data's in First Contact) with English — learn IPA and check your dictionary.

That pretty much is my point too. If you can be "correct" based on different "countries" (location/culture/society) then you don't have one all encompassing "perfect" pronunciation. Its one of the difficulties to voice recognition software.

[tnitnetny]

quote="Roundtop"]Well, I'm not going to call you "Americans", as that insults Mexico, Canada, and the entire of South America; using "The people of the United States of America" is a little long winded, and USians just seems to go right along with the mentality of a lot of the red states, with the focus on the "us".[/quote]

We are called Americans because it is the United Stated of "America". It has nothing to do with North or South America. People from Canada are called Canadians, not Americans. My boyfriend would be insulted (he is Canadian) to be called American, not the other way around.

I understand you aren't "meaning" to bash, but make sure you understand the culture before you even attempt to go there.

[Lizzegirle]

If the commercial is trying to depict something as being authentic "Italian" then they're pronunciation should be the way that an Italian would say it. There are plenty of people in the states that speak Italian, so get one of them to say it instead of hiring someone who doesn't know anything about the Italian language. I mean, you don't even see the person, it's mostly a voice-over.

I've had people get on my case for mispronouncing "kawaii" or "sakura" or anything else Japanese, so how is me being picky about a basic Italian pronunciation being anal?

[jerald_parker]

Well I'd say its equivalent to people correcting kawaii, ie, if you act upset and overbearing about it then you are acting "anal" if you were just like "hey thats not right" then no biggie. I don't want to call you anal or anybody else anal without more context of the situation but I totally know some people who can get anal about pronunciation or correct idiom.
Cheers

[Lizzegirle]

*sigh* Pedantic much?

You were the one that told me that you didn't believe that there was any such thing as an improper way to pronounce things. I defended my argument that there IS a right and a wrong way.

I didn't throw a fit, but I did say "Wow, that wasn't at all authentic." Which was odd because they were going on and on about being authentic. If you are claiming to be authentic... then find someone who can speak authentic Italian because (at the very least) there are a number of Italian speakers in this country who will get turned off by the fact that a basic Italian word was pronounced incorrectly.

It's a basic word too. It's not like they were asked to say "indirizzo" or "sbagliare" or something that is more tricky.