Comic for January 7th 2011: Positive

[collegestudent22]

She wanted to point out she believed cloth diapers would suit her purposes better, not trying to say they are better and everyone should do it.

She pointed out "these are the benefits", and I merely wanted to point out that some of those are misconceptions. I am sorry if I offended you, or anyone else with that post.

[Mae Dean]

Well, I've let CS22 run around rampant on this forum long enough, always wringing my hands because "he hadn't broken any rules", despite the fact that I, as the board admin, have simply wanted him gone for as long as I could remember. For years, that little prick has been wandering around in PACE pissing people off, flying under my radar. But when that little bitch steps where he doesn't belong, he angers a mysterious and terrible god. And then I remember - we do have one overarching rule that tumps all others - "Don't be a dick."

Well sir, you're being a dick. And I have but one response to dicks like you.



It is the dawning of a new age at RLF. A less pedantic age. An age where people can have reasonable discourse without a crazy sonofabitch coming in to tell you how amazingly wrong you are about everything. A better age.

Seriously though... I'm a freaking admin here, and I've hated the guy for years for being a total douchenozzle. Why the hell shouldn't I clean house and get his ass out of here, major infraction or no? I know it's a silly thing to get upset about, but man. SO tired of that guy.

[Rorschach]

Talking about disposable nappies and moisture wicking, we say 'wheeching'. That's almost interesting.
I had heard* that disposable nappies are actually too efficient in removing moisture and that often the child doesn't actually know when they've peed because they still feel dry. Which has a knock-on effect when potty-training. The effect isn't there so the cause takes longer to identify. Or somesuch.
In saying that, I hope that one day in the next year not to have to worry about it any more and instead enjoy the delights of 'Daddy! Wipe!'

* This is important

It sounds like madness, to be honest Liz. But having never considered trying it, I'd be interested to find out how you both get on with it. I can tell you that even foody clothes makes your washing machine stink after a while, but you seem to have included a step that eluded us.

Also: aw. Don't ban cs22 for being a dick. PACE will just turn in on itself and someone else will feel obliged to step up and be the whipping boy.
I can't do it. I wouldn't be able to find America on a map of America.

[YenRug]

Bit late to the party, two week break from work over Xmas and just catching up on webcomics now...

Congrats Greg & Liz!

Have to admit, I was reading the strip and my thought was, "Ah, so that's why there was the big panic last month, a whole lot more understandable now!" Not to suggest repeated vomitting is nothing to worry about, once is enough to mess my whole day up, but the level of response makes a lot more sense in hindsight. Just need to clear the decks of those pesky Shirt Ninjas now (j/k); from what I know of colleagues with kids, it doesn't matter how well you plan for them, you're just going to plain run out of time at some point.

[Muspar]

Congratulations, you two! I say you should use re-useable cloth diapers covered in chainmail. A baby that's highly resistant to slashing and piercing damage? Win.

[Lizzegirle]

I'm going to point out how stupid CS22 was with his comments when I get home from work today because I just don't have the time to dedicate to it right now.

However, as far as the washer smelling, I know that you're supposed to use a special detergent that is supposed to help with the smell. Also, air drying in the sun every once in awhile kills all of the bacteria and gets rid of any "stains".

Mostly, I'm cheap and crafty. That's what everything comes down to. =)

[barawn]

I'm going to point out how stupid CS22 was with his comments when I get home from work today because I just don't have the time to dedicate to it right now.

Incidentally, the study he mentioned - the UK study - isn't applicable to the US because a significant portion of the CO2 footprint involved is retail transportation costs (and, uh, the UK is small).

But in any case, it's the old "electric versus gasoline car" argument - "if the power plant is using fossil fuels, don't electric cars hurt the environment just as much?" The answer is, of course, no - because the state/government/power company can change one power plant a heckuva lot easier than thousands of cars. Similarly, "if it requires power to dry the diapers, and power uses fossil fuels, isn't that just as bad"? No, because, again, the consumer doesn't care how the power is generated, but you can't make disposable diapers without fossil fuel consumption.

I do have to say, the "dangerous chemicals" argument that cloth diaper people make really does bother me, though. There's no scientific evidence for it, which is why you always see "other studies have raised concerns..." rather than the FDA coming out and saying "this is bad." The environmental impact argument is real, the cost concern argument is real. Don't stoop to preying on people's fears ("don't miss our report at 10 PM tonight about the dangers of... bunk beds. It just might save your children's lives!") and using the 'scary yuppie buzzwords' of today ("chemical", "preservative", "artificial", etc.).

But, really - if you're able to do it, the cost savings are enough of a reason.

[Rorschach]

However, as far as the washer smelling, I know that you're supposed to use a special detergent that is supposed to help with the smell.

Running an empty wash with a cup of white vinegar in the drawer helps too.

[Winterbay]

I'm sorry, but I can't let this slip by just like that. As a product safety speiclist working with disposable diapers I feel an urge to comment...

Cloth diapering is a more expensive upfront cost but the savings over the first two years of the child is about $2500. Plus, you can use them again with the next child.

This I agree with. It is probably cheaper over all to use cloth diapers. I won't do that however since I like the convenience of the disposables. That is what i pay for, it being more convenient

However:

1) there is a chemical in disposables that can be very harmful to your baby or your baby's skin.

No there isn't. We do fairly extensive testing of all materials in diapers. Sure they are not performed on baby skin, but they are performed on humans under much worse conditions (for the skin that is) than the diaper will ever lead to and if we get a reaction on mor ethan 1 of the persons being tested the material is not allowed to be used.

All materials are also vetted for chemical content and compared with all available lists of unwanted substances from FDA and the EC and they are also tested for quite a lot of them in order to see that they are not there by mistake.
If you coudl specify which harmful chemical this is I would be very happy to look it up in our system. (that said we do not, as far I am aware sell any baby diapers in the US)

Also: There is nothing to say that producers of cloth diaper couldn't add chemicals in their process either

2) cloth diapers are more absorbent than disposables.

Cloth diapers have a good absorption I will grant you that but the superabsorbent powder in the disposables make them a lot better despite this leading to less changes and, again, an increase in convenience.

3) cloth diapers wick away moisture from the baby a lot better so there is less of a chance of rashes or infection.

I have not seen anything on this so far but I am fairly certain that this is not true. But without evidence I should not say anythign either way.

4) what sits against the baby's skin is something much softer than disposables so the baby is more comfortable.

Softness is very difficult topic as every person have a slightly different definition of what softness is. There are definitely diapermaterials out there that are less soft than cloth, but there are, imo, also synthetic materials that are ridiculously soft and very nice to have on your skin.

5) babies in cloth diapers look sooooo freaking cute! And cloth diapers can have any pattern or texture you like. But seriously, little baby butts in cloth look so cute!

I think babies look cute no matter what, but on the pattern I would definitely recommend having a non-coloured one. Colours are one of the least studied chemicals when it comes to dangers and there are so many of tham that if you don't know exactly what you have you can get something that you should probably not have, especially not near a baby. As a product safety person I think that all diapers should be white. Unfortunately the marketing department does not agree with me and so we have to do the best we can with the limited data out there, but I would still recommend you to have as few colours as possible involved...

The environmental aspect does play a part in it, but not a huge part. For sure, if you think that a baby goes through 5 diapers a day (sometimes more) then even after a year the diapers from your baby alone are about 1800. If you think that most babies aren't potty trained until they're well past 2 years old, then your baby has produced about 3650 or more disposables that are sitting in a landfill somewhere and not decomposing. 4000 diapers per kid, with about 4 million babies being born each year (just in the US) is roughly 16,000,000,000 diapers just sitting in a landfill each year. So if I can help that out even just a little, it's worth a try.

We might discover that we hate cloth and go to disposables, but I at least have to try.

Environmentally cloth and disposables are, at least in Europe, on the same level when it comes to environmental impact (at least that is what the environmental department down the corridor say, and they spend their entire days calculating life cycle assessments). In the US the transports play a bigger rule sure, but the main impact is still production so I'm not sure if that would actually affect the result that much. However I will grant you that in a country, such as the US, where 90% or so of all garbage end up in a landfill disposables are perhaps not the best choice. However in Europe 90% of all garbage is incinerated and as such give part of their production value back as heat and also does not stay around in the environment for as long leading to a better over all profile.

All that said: Congratulations on the baby! I hope it is as enjoyable as I hope it will be once I get one

Also: I hope I don't get banned as well

[tnitnetny]

Also: There is nothing to say that producers of cloth diaper couldn't add chemicals in their process either

She said she is making them herself. She also never said cloth diapers with chemicals would harm the baby, she said it could. She never used the definite.

[ampersand]

Question to Winterbay: Are you that guy that puts blue colored liquid on those sample diapers just show how superabsorbant your brand's diapers are?

[Mae Dean]

Also: I hope I don't get banned as well

He had it coming for a long time.

But just to reiterate - these are diapers Liz is making herself. We actually went out to purchase a number of different materials to test them out for softness and absorbency, and settled on this really nice cotton terry cloth.

I'd be willing to concede on the chemicals point, simply because I personally haven't done any research on it (Though, Liz does a lot of researchy stuff, so I'm gonna trust her). But the argument about the fabric is a little invalid. While the fabric inside the diaper contacts the baby, the fabric on the outside is just for show. CLOTHING has more skin contact than the outside of a diaper, and nobody is out there saying kids should be clothed in pure white cotton for the first few years of their lives.

And yeah, here in the US, diapers end up in Landfills. Plain and simple. Given that I have the option to opt in to pay a little extra to our utility company for 100% our electricity to come from renewable sources (And yes, I understand how it works. Hurr.), the net environmental impact of cloth diapering, the way we're doing it, is pretty damn close to zero. Water use is about it, really - and believe me, if I had the ability to use a greywater system here, I totally would. I work at a company that provides training for Green Building, after all. It kinda seeps into your head after a while.

[BtEO]

And now I'm imagining the kind of response CS22 would have had to that post.

[Deacon]

She also never said cloth diapers with chemicals would harm the baby, she said it could. She never used the definite.

Well, come on, let's be fair here, the implication was pretty obvious because she's making decisions based partly on the "could" aspect of it, which would suggest that there's a significant chance of that happening.

Personally I'm not sure I could handle 100% cloth diapers. I was raised in them (according to my mom--I don't exactly remember, so I'll have to take her word on it), but that's exclusively due to economic concerns. We were dirt poor when I was little. I imagine that when traveling or when others are watching the baby, even if I generally used cloth diapers I couldn't be hard line about it.

Additionally, wouldn't cloth diapers leak all over whatever the baby is sitting on or in? Not just through the leg holes and such but also straight through the fabric? Man that seems like a lot more than the diapers would have to get washed repeatedly

[Mae Dean]

Nah, cloth diapers today are ridiculously well engineered... even the ones Liz is making. They really are very similar in form to a disposable. Here's one company that does them: http://www.bumgenius.com/organic.php. The ones liz is making are pretty similar to that, with the snaps along the side and whatnot for sizing.

The outer layer of these is a PUL fabric (Polyurethane Laminate) which is essentially cotton fabric with a film of impervious Polyurethane on one side of it. Completely waterproof, stretchy as hell, and it never contacts the baby, since it has 1-2 layers of terry cloth covering it. (It's all sewn together like a liner, basically.) The outside of the PUL is just cotton, and just feels only a TINY bit "stiffer" than regular fabric, due to the laminate on the other side.

Believe me - this isn't the diaper you grew up with. They're a smaller form factor than disposables, so the kids have more freedom of movement, and they absorb/retain just as well, while wicking away moisture better than disposables. Liz made a few Protodipes and had my sister try them out on her daughter, and they were fantastic. Oddly, there's a lot of engineering that goes into these damn things. But the way these are made, it's essentially the exact same process as a disposable - just using snaps on the side instead of tape.