Feb 9,2011

[BatchElder69]

ummm ewwww...... 4th Ed



Go Pathfinder .......

[Roundtop]

For those young whippersnappers who don't know what THAC0 is, It was used in D&D in first and second editions and is To Hit Armor Class 0. You used to have armor class, starting at 10 and dropping to -10. This modified the THAC0. So if your THAC0 was 15, but their armor was 5, you would need a 10+ to hit.

See, easy

Honestly I was kinda glad when 3rd ed got rid of THAC0 and just made it straight addition/damage absorbtion. That said, I miss my weapon speeds from 2nd ed (Initiative order was your init roll + dex + speed of weapon if I remember right). It was so worth it to use daggers as you could stick the guy with the longsword before he had a chance to hit you.

[Quakes]

THAC0 - To Hit Armor Class Zero. So with a THAC0 of 20, rolling a 20 hits AC 0. Default AC is 10, same as 3rd edition, so the rolls are exactly the same. 3rd is just easier to keep track of. I miss some things about 2nd edition, but 3.x makes way more sense.

[Mae Dean]

I was glad with THAC0 got ditched too, but it was fun to say. My D&D upbringing was in 2.5, so I was well and truly used to it.

As to the 4th edition thing... well, I'm mostly just peeking at it for the moment, but I'm willing to let my geekery show through a little bit and note that the MAIN reason I'm peeking at the DM guide is for many years down the line. I'm thinking ahead at how nice it'd be to run a little campaign at home for my wife and kid(s), and saw it as an excuse to finally get to read the DM guide. Ben said 4th Edition was a little bit like an MMO in terms of combat, and mostly I'm just reading it to see if combat has been simplified or what they did, and see if it'd be worth looking into. Not committing to anything right now, just thought I'd have a peek at the rules.

[Arres]

I grew on up 2.5 and spent some time in 3/3.5 as well. Some of my friends and I have agreed to disagree. I LOVE 4th ed. Most of the core of what makes D&D....itself, is still there. Most of the bullshit time consuming math, is not. The way they've worked abilities is phenomenol. I'm even a fan of Disenchanting in order to create new Magic Items. OH! And racial bonuses are ONLY bonuses now! No more negatives! The whole thing is solid.

Yes, they've monetized it a little bit by making miniatures and dungeon tiles an "official" part of the game. That's fine, I don't mind them making money on it. If you don't want to use them you can still go the route of:
"The door opens onto a 40'x40' room. There are tables and chairs in the center, and a line a of bunk beds down the south side."
"How well lit is it? Perception check to see if there is anything in the dark corners or hiding under the beds!"

[Mae Dean]

See, the miniatures don't bother me, really. I don't NEED them, but it also kinda makes it more kid-friendly, if and when we do manage to do this with our kid(s). So I'm OK with it. And really, anything that simplifies and speeds up the game is fine with me.

[Koreth]

Even if you're not into 4th edition and prefer 3.5, 4th did some other good things. 3.5 books are dirt cheap now as stores try to get rid of their remaining 3.5 inventory and some players changing editions sell off their 3.5 collections to fund starting a 4th edition collection. So if there were any 3.5 books you were wanting but missed or couldn't quite afford, now's the time to get a deal on them.

[Roundtop]

minis are potentially kid friendly until the kid decides to play with them and mess up your combat strategies (Activated ability: Chaos, cooldown 15 minutes, duration 5 minutes, MP: 1).

There is only one hiccup Greg, and I'm not sure if you've figured it out yet.... but the time he is old enough to play/understand, it is a minimum of 5 years from now... by which time they will be one 5th ed at a minimum .

Of course, I have the exact same issue with my kid, but meh.

[Mae Dean]

There is only one hiccup Greg, and I'm not sure if you've figured it out yet.... but the time he is old enough to play/understand, it is a minimum of 5 years from now... by which time they will be one 5th ed at a minimum .

That had occurred to me, but people still play 2.5, so who knows?

[Jirin]

I still prefer 2nd, but with House Rules that remove the obvious problems they solved in 3rd. Silly race/class and level restrictions, an absurdly limiting proficiency system, spell memorization, saving throws and ability score checks that didn't vary with the spellcaster's level, and so on.

What I don't like is the direction the game seems to be headed, away from situation roleplaying and toward more hack and slash gaming. The 2nd edition Monster Manuals had these 'Habitat/Society' and 'Ecology' sections, which gave you information about the way a creature lives and behaves, which often inspired really interesting ideas for how to use them. Since then, Monster Manuals only have information about combat statistics, as if you're only supposed to use them like Final Fantasy monsters who appear out of nowhere, attack for no reason and then die.

One other thing I really liked in 2nd is simultaneity. All players decide their action, they play out as if they're occurring at the same time. I don't like in later editions how players move like chessmen.

Anyway, none of my friends nor I really have time to play anymore. Oh, nostalgia.

[Roundtop]

my weekly D&D game got replaced by my weekly trips to GF (now wife) which got replaced by my weekly battletech boardgame/RPG, which got replaced by my kid.

Ahhh nostalgia... staying up late playing 2nd ed with friends...then driving to Seattle for 3am seafood, then back. Now going to bed after 11pm feels damn late.

[Remolay]

I rolled a character in 2nd edition and never got to use him. HE was a ranger, his species enemy was rabbit.

Now I'm in a 3.5 edition game on fridays via skype and using an online dice roller (http://www.catchyourhare.com/diceroller/) that let's everyone with the same password see what you rolled/they rolled.

Why am I saying all of this? Opening up the possibility to you guys, if there wasn't one already.

[ve4grm]

Like Arres, 4e is my favourite version of D&D to date. It has its own issues, just like 3.5, 2e, and all prior editions had, but it's a great game. It does take some adjusting to, when you come from a 3e background, however.

As for combat playing like an MMO, eh, I disagree on that, but it's probably a point of terminology more than differing opinions. In any case, if you want to find out how combat runs, you'll find the rules in the PHB, not the DMG.

I will say, however, that the 4e DMG is probably the single best book on advice for DMing that I've ever read. Whether you play 4e, 5e, or a mashup of 1e and Basic D&D, it's a great book to read for tips.


As for the game being better for kids... well, it depends on a lot. I will say I've had an easier time teaching kids (8-10) 4th edition than I ever had teaching them 3.5. (I've also had an easier time teaching kids 4th edition than I have teaching experienced adults 4th edition sometimes.) But it is still a complex game.

If you're wanting to start the kids gaming early, I'd look to something like:


rpgKids from NewbieDM.com


It's a game specifically made for easy roleplaying with 4-7 year old kids. It should be an awesome gateway game until they're old enough to deal with the complexities of any edition of D&D. It's been praised by all sorts of people, including the GeekDad blog at Wired, and is only $2.99.

No, I didn't write it, but it was done by a friend of mine. He made it so he could game with his own daughter, and it's gaining traction all over the web.

[Gouf_Custom]

Personally, I find 4th ed to be quite fun. However, I also find it to not really feel like I'm playing D&D. Best way I can think to put it is less like an imaginative P&P roleplaying game, and more of a board game.

[Deacon]

The first pen-n-paper RPG I ever played was Vampire Dark Ages, and I've only played 4e, but it STILL felt way the hell too restrictive and too rules-lawyer-y. I'm guessing I would've hated 2.5.