The ethics of suicide

daemon princess · Post by **daemon princess** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:15 pm

Is suicide morally wrong? If somebody would like to kill themselves, do they have the right to do so?

Would you give a different answer for someone who was living in extreme conditions with no hope of escape - a concentraion camp, for instance?

Euthanasia?

What if some greater good was going to come of their death, or they believed it would?

Lastly, if somebody was driven to suicide by another person, should that person be tried for murder?

Goku · Post by **Goku** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:11 pm

suicide morally wrong? depends on how you look at it. Some people say its selfish...they don't consider the ones around them that really care. no I wouldn't give a different answer than that. yea...I would believe it...then they relize things they hadn't before.

seeing as how it was the other persons actions who caused the death then yes. actions are the same as taking a knife and cutting the persons head off

Catine · Post by **Catine** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 10:50 pm

Suicide. Hmmm. I think that everyone should be able to make that choice if they want to, and I definitely don't think it is morally wrong. Whether a person is dying a slow death from cancer and chooses euthanasia, or a person wants to die for some personal reason that nobody else can understand, I believe everyone has the right to commit suicide.

I hate it when people gripe about suicide being a selfish act. It *is* selfish, but isn't it also selfish to want someone to continue a life that they don't want to live? Isn't it selfish to want to spare yourself the suffering of losing someone you love?

I don't know about being tried for murder for driving someone to suicide. It would be tough to prove.

Mr.Shroom · Post by **Mr.Shroom** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:01 pm

Euthanasia is actually a classic ethical debate, and often leads to a breaking down of terms. Suicide is often viewed as an logic experiment. Lets take it step by step, and through the various possible definitions of the words we're using here.

-Suicide (as I use it here) means: A person has reached a state of hopelessness due to internal and\or external mental stressors, thus driving them to end their torment via the termination of life.

*More often than not, we deal with this in cases of depression. Someone who is convinced that the only solution to their problems is the termination of their life. This could be due to a sense of worthlessness or utter confusion. Since such thoughts normally occur in an irrational state, its hard for one to 'work out' their problems via therapy. Its a more inward and rather selfish take, based more on illogic. Thus, someone isn't being immoral, their being illogical in this instance.

*At other times, this occurs when one becomes convinced that they have a 'duty to die', to coin a phrase. When one is convinced that others would be better off in their own lives without them around. This is more outward in apperance, but is ultimatly more a dirivative of guilt and shame, which are still inward and selfish motives. Again, an illogical case, rather than one of ethics.

*But let us adress the though experiment situation of someone who was living in extreme conditions with no hope of escape. This is where we take logic to another stage: What is my moral obligation as a prisoner? Most military orginizations state that prisoners of war have certain duties: Organized Resistance (Escape), Resisting as long as possible (Give little information if broken w/o guilt, and regroup to try again), and working in limited circumstances. Those pretty much state that one should resist, escape if possible, and work with what you have. The 'Hope Springs Eternal' concept. Thus it would address suicide as 'giving up', taking the easy way out and being more selfish to the others with hope. The concept of there always being hope is one of the main outcrys against suicide, viewing it as a selfish and often illogical act.

*'Forced suicide'...I don't think theres such a thing as 'forced suicide'. The final choice is always that of the one who does it...its just wether that person is thinking logically or not. That person who would attempt that would really just be labled for abuse, most likely.

-Euthanasia (as I use it here) means: A second party terminates the life of the other inorder to end the terminiated subject's pain.

*This is the touchy matter. One arguement claims that Euthanasia with consent is fine. People who don't want to spend the last few moments of their lives stuck to a machine, just because science can stay back nature. But then the 'Theres Always Hope' comes up and slaps that around. You'll more than likely find that it comes down to personal opinion: If the person asked to do this, with or without consent, really knows what this person wants, knows the person well enough, and really has the life\opinion\well-being of the other party in mind when making their choice. Overall, its down to personal p.o.v...sounds like a crappy answer, but thats the best one I've got.

sneaky ninja · Post by **sneaky ninja** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:10 pm

I'm with Goku, I think suicide is rather selfish. Euthanasia is one thing, I mean, it can be OK if someone is terminally ill anyway, why go to all that work and pain to save them when they'll just find a new way to die and do it all over again ("find" is a bad choice of words, but you know what I mean...)

Suicide, on the other hand, is different. Years ago I was seriously considering killing myself (Thank God I'm way to wimpy)becuase my life sucked and no one understood me and I hated myself and all that. But now, I'm in a way better place and am SO glad I never did anything drastic. I look at my life now, and my family's life and realize that it WOULD have been selfish to put an end to my existence. They would hvae had to reaccomodate themselves completely because of one single action. An action, I might add, that is of absolutely no benefit to anyone.

If someone doesn't like their life, fine, but they should learn to put up with it. People always think they have it bad off, and no matter what, there is always someone with a crappier life then you. It's hard, but it's possible to get over depression and self-loathing and whatnot. And to finally find the peace you've been longing for, it's definitely worth it.

So I would have to conclude that suicide is morally wrong.

Mr.Shroom · Post by **Mr.Shroom** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:17 pm

I'm of the position that you're not technically moral if you're not in a rational state of mind. Most suicide-contemplating persons aren't of the most logical mental state after getting through THAT kind of emotional gauntlet that makes one enjoy the idea of terminating ones life.

Lune [6 Option Mod] · Post by **Lune [6 Option Mod]** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:18 pm

What sort of question is this?

Suicide is suicide. If someone succeeds, then the point about suicide being "right" or "wrong" is moot. Why? They're dead.

If they fail, I see nothing wrong with them going to a clinic so as to try and handle their problems in another manner outside of killing themselves.

And if they try again afterwards? Rinse and repeat the process, depending on if they succeed or fail.

Euthanasia is also entirely different from suicide. Whereas one person is angst-ridden, or having a horrible life ... the person considering euthanasia is mostly all of the time doing so because of their physical health.

If that is the case, and the person is more or less incapable of recovery, then it should be their choice.

And no, someone should not be tried for first degree murder. Second degree, perhaps. Involuntary manslaughter, maybe. But not first degree. Driving someone to suicide and forcing someone upon suicide through a meditated effort, are two entirely different sides of the coin to consider.

Fixer · Post by **Fixer** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:08 pm

Removing morality from the decision making process as much as possible, I come to the following conclusions on suicide.

Suicide usually is the result of a person becoming so self-depreciating that they believe that the world would be better if they were no longer a part of it. This is not logical. Every person possesses some quality that they can use to participate in society if focused properly and used effectively. Given that is it not rationally possible for a person to be 'useless' to the world, suicide is a waste of human resources and should be avoided.

On the subject of euthanasia, when a person has led a full life and no longer wishes to participate in the events of the world, and their ability to participate in society is less than the required effort of others to keep them alive, then the person should have the right to tell others not to keep them alive and let them pass on. With our level of technology today, it is possible to keep a person 'alive' even when their body no longer functions properly. Given our technological abilities in the area of preventing death, death becomes more of a choice than a natural course of events. As a choice, it belongs to the individual who wishes to die, provided they are in full awareness of their faculties. In the event they are not so aware, their guardian may make the decision for them.

Talon · Post by **Talon** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:48 am

Is suicide morally wrong? If somebody would like to kill themselves, do they have the right to do so?

Depends on who's morals you are using. Christian morals state it is wrong. Only God can take or give life... etc. etc.

However, I am one who believes morals are subjective - we each have our own set and they are based on what we are taught as children and what we learn through experience as adults. To consider it morally right or wrong is very tricky because to you it might be ok, to bob down the street it might be wrong.

To me - I'd say it is the person's choice. However, I feel that no one should ever feel so terrible about themselves and their own life that they should be inclined to commit suicide. As was said before - when one wishes to commit suicide they are not exactly in the proper state of mind. It is often an impulsive decision...

As for it being right or wrong (I said it was their decision, I did not address the correctness of it, if that would be the right term)...

I feel it is wrong to commit suicide. It is your choice, but I feel that if you are in that much pain you should seek help. Help is always there... and no matter how much you deny it there are people who care about you - I speak of this from experience (I will address it in another paragraph)...

Would you give a different answer for someone who was living in extreme conditions with no hope of escape - a concentraion camp, for instance?

I'd say they should hold out... there is hope for excape or rescue, though only minute. But if they are that desparate then they should.

My mother was manic depressive/bi polar /depressed/ etc. She was like this for over six years. Nothing was working to make her better. Then she found out she was terminally ill with Cancer. She hung herself from the top of the second floor stairs. Her's was a critical situation, and could even be considered self inflicted Euthanasia.

It was her choice to die. There was no hope for survival or for getting better. She made the choice. Was it wrong? I think so. I would have liked a few more weeks with her. I would have supported Euthanasia for her after that. I would have liked a chance to say goodbye. Was it selfish of her? Maybe. Can I be angry with her? Not really. I would have done the same (except I would have said goodbye).

Euthanasia?

Yes. If you are terminally ill, in pain, and you wish to die then I feel you have the right to ask to die. It is a sort of cruel and unusual punishment to sentance someone to live a life of misery and then die.

What if some greater good was going to come of their death, or they believed it would?

This is highly unlikely - though there are those who would believe it. If there truly could be some higher good to come of it (for example they were infested with a biologically altered disease that could wipe out all of humanity and they were on a plane about to land at a busy airport... then yeah perhaps they should off themselves or blow up the plane)... but situations like that are HIGHLY unlikely.

Lastly, if somebody was driven to suicide by another person, should that person be tried for murder?

only if a direct link could be proven... such as a suicide note that said as much and testimonial, or physical proof of what was claimed in the suicide note... and even then perhaps not jail time... but surely a fine to be paid to the family...

No matter how much someone bullies another... it is the other who takes their own life... the bully likely had no clue the person would take their own life. The bully committed no crime other than being a total bastard... unless they could prove otherwise (harassment, abuse, etc).

In the end the person who is 'responsible' cannot really be held responsible for the actions taken by another.

~Talon

Mr.Shroom · Post by **Mr.Shroom** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:30 am

Depends on who's morals you are using. Christian morals state it is wrong. Only God can take or give life... etc. etc.

True. But thats why we deal in logic, rather than the fallacious 'God-said-so' arguement. And even morals should be based on logic, making things subjective only to the heriarchy of needed outcomes\acts or goals deemed of worth. And lets not forget therapy, people. Other people can always help.

On euthanasia, we could address animal euthanasia as well. My own pet may have to be put down to either cost issues or inability for a cure that won't keep him from a life of pain. Are these immoral?

Pyctsidust · Post by **Pyctsidust** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:57 am

When you look at the 'is suicide morally wrong question' it is hard to look at it objectivly.

I do not feel suicide is morally wrong, it may not be right and it may indeed be selfish, but it is not morally wrong.

To impose morality on an act is in some cases to condem a person that suffered greatly in this life to eternal torment, btw I am not Christian, so I do not believe this, but others do and I feel that turning round to a family and saying 'Your loved one will now burn for eternity' is a really vicious thing to do, and that IS morally wrong.

Suicide is usually an irrational act commited in the deepest moments of desperation, where the person feels there is no other options open to them. This is different from an attempted suicide and serial suicide attempts, the kind that have very little chance of succeeding and are a cry for help. To continue to attempt, or appear to attempt suicide is a different subject and may be subject to morality, this would have to be looked at in more detail.

As for the driving someone to suicide, if the person can be proved to know the concequences their actions would provoke, then a case for murder can be made. People are more aware of the concequeces that you may think sometimes.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:40 am

I think suicide is wrong. Why? Because I believe that a person can do anything he/she wants as long as it doesn't hurt others (with some exceptions of course). Well but if someone commits a suicide then they do hurt others (friends, family etc.). So unless either noone loves that person in any way (as a friuend, as a parent as a husband/wife, as a son/daughter etc) or those persons also think it would be for the best then it is wrong.

Fixer · Post by **Fixer** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:19 pm

Ok, you all officially suck now.

I went and posted a completely logical post devoid of morality and you all completely ignore it and continue to bicker about the morality of suicide. Each person has different morals and you will never agree on it.

This is not an intelligent discussion, this is a rant. How about the creator requesting that it be moved, or that people bring the subject back into line?

furre · Post by **furre** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:23 pm

[quote="daemon princess";p="118388"]Is suicide morally wrong?[/quote][quote="Fixer";p="119816"]I went and posted a completely logical post devoid of morality and you all completely ignore it and continue to bicker about the morality of suicide.[/quote]
Am I missing something here? Wouldn't this mean that your post was OT?

Fixer · Post by **Fixer** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:25 pm

Fine. I will shut up and go elsewhere. Whatever.

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