What is Hell?

hell_monkey5623 · Post by **hell_monkey5623** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:08 am

Now, if you are a human being with morals, or if you read the Divine Comedy, or at least have a basic idea of what it is, we all know that Hell is a place of burning and fiery doom. But on a more mental, personal scale, what is hell for you? A place where people ignore you completely? Are you stuck in one horrible place for the rest of eternity? What is a hellish situation for you? Give me some of your views.

A little Hell philosophy.

Post by **Blaze** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:56 am

Biblically, hell is the actual death. The seperation from god. Hell is what Earth would be for us if God weren't part of it.

Hell may or may not be individualized for each person. For me, hell would be just that, Seperation from god. So no matter what happened, I couldn't talk to him.

But, that's comming from a pretty strong christian.

sneaky ninja · Post by **sneaky ninja** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:43 am

What Blaze said^.^

Shyknight · Post by **Shyknight** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:44 pm

There is no hell, at least not one that can't be escaped from. I'll stand by that belief even if I go to hell for it. *grin*

Seriously, think about it. If hell is a place of unreedemable and unforgivable torment forever and ever, and God allows His children to enter this place even though He is omnipotent, then HE IS A MONSTER THAT MUST BE STOPPED. You can say all you want about "the ways of the lord are mysterious" or "nothing that is imperfect can join with that which is perfect" and go on and on trying to defend Him, but what hell really amounts to is horrible punishment, FOREVER. Would you befriend a man who abandons his children to die, or worse? Then how could you ever bring yourself to worship a deity who does the same?

I'll never believe that about God, so I simply say there is no hell. Purgatory perhaps, but never hell. the Final Death, perhaps, but certainly never a place of eternal torture. Don't say the Final Death is torture. It's not. It isn't anything. It's nothing.

"Hell may or may not be individualized for each person. For me, hell would be just that, Seperation from god. So no matter what happened, I couldn't talk to him."

By that definition, aren't we all in hell right now? I mean, sure you can pray, and you can read the Bible, but you can't REALLY talk to God. And you are all sinners, I can say that with a certainty. So perhaps this is hell? Blaze said earlier:

"Hell is what Earth would be for us if God weren't part of it."

I've yet to see any evidence of God being a part of this physical world, at least nowhere near my own time. What was written thousands of years ago cannot be trusted. Therefore by your definition, this place could very well be hell.

I believe in a just and loving Creator, but the one big problem that I have with religions, Christianity being one of them, is that you must trust a book with all your heart and soul. Who is to say that the Bible is ALL God's word? Only the Bible defends the truth of the Bible. If Satan's influence extends to virtually everything else in the world (and some are thinking it now extends to my thoughts), then isn't it a rather simple matter to make a few editorial insertions into an otherwise divinely inspired book?

Let me quote a verse I find particularly ridiculous, considering that I am a human and living on the Earth. James 4:4

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

Not only does this passage make the very breath you are now taking a SIN, but it also makes God the enemy of the entire world... and we are all living in the world, are we not? Think about what God wants you to do, according to the Bible. He wants you to give up every pleasure you have ever known, except, of course, for 'basking' in his presence. Give up all the money and posessions you have to the poor, or preferably to the church. Do this CHEERFULLY, knowing that money can't buy happiness. Happiness can only be found in kissing God's ass.

If it feels good, it's probably evil. That includes eating, drinking, sex, pride, materialism... pretty much anything that would make life worth living, THAT is what is evil. Love isn't evil, however. You can love anyone you want, no, wait, scratch that, you are required to love even your ENEMIES, no matter how despicable they may be. You may love all you like, as long you love God the MOST. Nothing else is acceptable. After all, who has done more for you than God? He gave you your life and put you on this world, didn't he? Who are you to enjoy any part of it, before paying proper respect to the gifts he has given you? (which you can NEVER do adequately, but try the impossible anyway... it amuses him)

So that's what it means to be a Christian. Sacrifice yourself to God and your fellow men with your faith and good works. Sacrifice yourself like a goat, and then die. Live a life where the only thing you have to look forward to is DYING. Then when you die, smile knowing that while others are going to BURN in hell, you are going to become One with that God you love so much, and in so doing give up your individuality forever. Which, when you think about it, is where you would be HAD YOU NEVER BEEN BORN.

But don't ever, EVER, think for one second that you go to heaven by anything YOU did. Pathetic mortal, you were evil the moment your mama popped you out. The first thing you did was cry, thinking only of YOUR needs. How selfish. You get born and the first thing you do is covet. Even then Satan had entered into you. No, it is only through God's 'grace' that we are allowed entrance into heaven. This is because Jesus Christ, God's one 'true' Son, (awww, you didn't think he cared about YOU that much, did you?) some say the very physical incarnation of God, took all our sins upon himself when he died on a cross. Jesus Christ was a man without sin. You might even say he was THE man. We should all aspire to be more like him. "Cmon everyone, it's BYON (bring your own nails) and we'll all take turns crucifying each other in tribute to Jesus, and then when we die we'll be with him forrreeeever, yaaay! What's that, Bob? You don't want to die? You want to go on eating, sleeping, and fucking? How selfish. How sinful! I'm sorry that you're going to hell, Bob. The rest of us are gonna go ahead and do this."

Here's a question that always haunted me. Suppose i DO go to some sort of heaven, and get 'reunited' with God. When I enter His presence, will I become One with everything, or will I become nothing? Or is there even a difference, ultimately?

You know, the only way to stop being 'seperated' in one degree or another from God is to BECOME God. And the only way to become God is to STOP being yourself, meaning to give up having an individual existence and a free will (gifts from God in the first place... man, what an Indian giver). Did God regurgitate my soul onto this rock to watch me run around in fear and self-loathing, biding his time until I come around to praising his name, only to then devour my soul into the infinite that is He? Perhaps this 'hell' he speaks of is where he puts the uneatable bits, in his garbage incinerator.

...but that's coming from a pretty weak Christian.

Sorry if this disturbed or insulted any of you. I want nothing less than love and happiness for you all. These words seem like poison to me even now, and yet I am so full of doubt and so NOT full of faith, that I have ceased to care anymore. I will live the best I know how to, without the aid of any books or prayers, and hope that is enough.

Rorschach · Post by **Rorschach** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:18 pm

Check the sig...
I don't know if there is a hell or not; just as I am unsure whether or not there is a God, or a heaven.
Nice points Shyknight
If there is a God, he sholdn't punish his creation for sinning. After all; it was He who made them fallible.

Fixer · Post by **Fixer** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:15 pm

Fixer's Hell: Possessing of no faith in anything (even yourself) and not having any hope that things can improve.

To me, the above is hell, anything else is just somewhere between miserable and ecstatic.

Shyknight · Post by **Shyknight** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:21 pm

Ah, so hell is a state of mind. I can't say I haven't been there.

Also it just occured to me Hell is a place in Michigan.

Fixer · Post by **Fixer** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:23 pm

[quote="Shyknight";p="123187"]Ah, so hell is a state of mind. I can't say I haven't been there.

Also it just occured to me Hell is a place in Michigan.[/quote]
Well, when one dies, what remains other than the mind? Hmmmm? A thought to ponder.

SothThe69th · Post by **SothThe69th** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:27 pm

This is Hell.

amlthrawn · Post by **amlthrawn** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:30 pm

[quote="Blaze";p="122914"]Biblically, hell is the actual death. The seperation from god. Hell is what Earth would be for us if God weren't part of it.

Hell may or may not be individualized for each person. For me, hell would be just that, Seperation from god. So no matter what happened, I couldn't talk to him.

But, that's comming from a pretty strong christian.[/quote]

That is also what I have come to believe. I encounter great difficulty trying to picture it, however. The closest I can come to is, as Blaze mentioned, the earth without God as part of it: The absence of grace, forgiveness, and (above all) hope. Once hope of salvation is removed from the equation, you don't need fire, devils, or three headed keroboses. It just doesn't get any worse than that; infinite despair.

Edit: So I can actually be on topic. A "hellish" situation for me would be being alone, lost, and unable to find my way. That actually fits quite nicely with my actualy definition of hell. So I guess that worked out for the best.

Shyknight · Post by **Shyknight** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:16 pm

"Once hope of salvation is removed from the equation, you don't need fire, devils, or three headed keroboses. It just doesn't get any worse than that; infinite despair."

So you're saying that you won't live in a world where you can't have infinite bliss for eternity? That anything less than heaven isn't worth your time? You're really demanding of the universe, aren't you?

I'm a fool, so enlighten me. Exactly what IS salvation, and why is it something to be desired? Other than the whole living forever thing.

amlthrawn · Post by **amlthrawn** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:31 pm

[amlthrawn's beliefs]

I will try to answer your concerns to the best of my ability based on the knowledge of my own faith:

By that definition, aren't we all in hell right now? I mean, sure you can pray, and you can read the Bible, but you can't REALLY talk to God.

No. This is because we are in the presence of God all of the time. The difference is whether or not you realize this. Hell is the removal of this presence.

Think about what God wants you to do, according to the Bible. He wants you to give up every pleasure you have ever known, except, of course, for 'basking' in his presence. Give up all the money and posessions you have to the poor, or preferably to the church. Do this CHEERFULLY, knowing that money can't buy happiness. Happiness can only be found in kissing God's ass.

A lot of this comes from a very narrow reading of scripture. The giving up of possessions serves a two-fold purpose: 1) to divide our wealth according to need and 2) to distance us from worldly desires and closer to our faith. In the early days of Christianity when the communities were more close knit, it was indeed possible to give up all of your posessions and live the literal translation of the bible. Now, however, this is very unlikely (because of the way civilization has developed itself).

The central message of the entire Christian Testiment is that you should care for the needs of your brother (neighbor) before your own. If you are doing that, you are doing the right thing. God doesnt' want you to give up all pleasure; just the self-consuming hedonistic pleasure that distances you from your primary objective (love of neighbor).

Did God regurgitate my soul onto this rock to watch me run around in fear and self-loathing, biding his time until I come around to praising his name, only to then devour my soul into the infinite that is He?

He wishes not to see you running around in "fear and self-loathing," but to give up selfish desires and help your brother. Self-loathing accomplishes nothing. Good works accomplishes everything.

So you're saying that you won't live in a world where you can't have infinite bliss for eternity?

Thankfully that is not a choice I have to make (per se). How I live my life with respect to the Law of Love will determine my fate. The only choice I have in the matter is how to lead my life in this state of existence (aka free will). Whether or not I want to live in this world or the next is not directly a choice of mine (I was born here, not by my choice; and it is ultimately up to God as to whether or not I have followed the Law satisfactorily).

That anything less than heaven isn't worth your time?

My current state of existence is certainly less than heaven but is by no means a waste of my time. The right here and right now is my opportunity to love my neighbor and act in accordance to the faith and conviction I believe in. My sole objective should be to serve others. This is worth all of the time I have on this earth.

You're really demanding of the universe, aren't you?

"Eye has not seen and hear has not heard, nor has it dawned on man what God has prepared for those who love him." (1 Cor 2:9) This is by no means a demand by me, but instead a promised made to all of mankind.

I'm a fool, so enlighten me. Exactly what IS salvation, and why is it something to be desired? Other than the whole living forever thing.

Salvation is redemption from sin and the promise of, not only living forever, but living forever in the Holy Presence of God. (or if you want the techincal definition: "Salvation is the forgiveness of sins and restoration of friendship with God, which can be done by God alone.")

The way I see it, there are only 2 possibilities for the hereafter:

* Salvation (in which we transcend into the existence commonly known as "heaven") by which we live eterenally with our creator

* Damnation (hell... see the rest of this thread)

I will leave the stickiness of "limbo" out of the discussion for the sake of brevity.

If one believes that the prospect of damnation is preferable to salvation, that is a choice they must make (and live their life accordingly in order to achieve it). I am not one to tell you that you should desire salvation, but from the standpoint of my faith, I find it difficult to see why you would want to desire the other choice.

Oh, and you are not a fool. A fool doesn't ask questions, but flames needlessly.

[/amlthrawn's beliefs]

But all of this is a bit off topic. If this particular discussion is to continue, perhaps it should be conducted over PM or perhaps in a different thread. I hope this clears up any questions you may have had about my post.

Cheers!

EDIT: Made some additions. This post is way too long now, though. My apologies to all.

Shyknight · Post by **Shyknight** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:27 am

"But all of this is a bit off topic. If this particular discussion is to continue, perhaps it should be conducted over PM or perhaps in a different thread."

No, it is pointless for the faithful to debate with the faithless. It would go nowhere. I respect both our time so let's just say I leave my words as they stand, an emotional rant that may or may not be my final opinion on the matter.

Back on topic then. Here's an idea for my hell: everyone in the world is trying to convert me, all the time. If that wouldn't be torture I dunno what would be.

amlthrawn · Post by **amlthrawn** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:44 am

No, it is pointless for the faithful to debate with the faithless. It would go nowhere. I respect both our time so let's just say I leave my words as they stand, an emotional rant that may or may not be my final opinion on the matter.

No, I wasn't trying to debate nor convert you. It just appeared as if you had some questions about my post and I was trying to clear them up for you (trying to tell you what I meant).

I'm not an evangelist... and though I think I'm honor-bound to try to convert people, it has never been my strong suit. I'm sorry you misunderstood my post.

Anyway, no human can convert any other human. Only God has the power to do that. Though I guess from your point of view that would be a paradox.

Post by **Blaze** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:57 am

You and I think in a very similar fashion, amlthrawn. There are so many times I've wanted to do a little professing on here, but I've just not been able to find the right words.

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